Expression maps - key switches triggering some dynamics doesn’t work

Hi all,
I’m new to Dorico and I have a question about what’s wrong with my personal Expression Maps created for my Kontakt Factory Library. Just for being quick and because I posted a screen recording of what happen yesterday (18/10/2024).

Here is my problem: I made my Expression Maps, everything in the preview seems to work perfectly but, when I write and I go to play what’s written in the score, some key switches doesn’t work, like sf or sfz (it maintain “natural”), and < crescendo and > diminuendo (is the same with cresc. or < and dim. or >).

As you can see in my screen recording (without audio, I don’t know why), the key switches work in the preview (when i press play in the expression maps dialog window) but when the score plays, some of that are read as “natural” key switch.

Any suggestion?

Thanks to all.

Welcome to the forum @Rouhd86.

Did you post your screen recording on the Facebook page? Not all of us check it, that’s all.

I would need to see a project of a few bars length with just the problem material to be of any help. Your Expression Map will automatically load with the project.

EDIT:
I use Kontakt but only to host other VST instruments. However, if it’s possible to export your Multi from Kontakt, maybe it would open correctly on my end? I’ve never done it before.

I saw that you just tagged me in the Facebook group now.

Have you ensured that the Expression Map is assigned to the Trumpet?

I should have that Trumpet instrument in Kontakt. Upload your project and I will be happy to investigate further.

I can do it, just I don’t know how to export Multi from Kontakt.

Yes, I’m sure : I think I tried to do anything I could.

Key Switches Kontakt.dorico (620,8 KB)

Here I am, I hope is clear what’s the problem I mean.

Thanks a lot for your availability!

It might be something to do with how Dorico handles dynamics and Playback Techniques.

I created a custom Playing Technique, assigning it to the crescendo Playback Technique, added the new cresc. Playing Technique over the first bar, and it worked fine…

The project is attached with the new technique as an example.

Key Switches Kontakt v2.dorico (636.1 KB)

I don’t know why the dynamics wouldn’t trigger the Playback Technique.

Thanks a lot for this work!

How can be possible dynamics does not trigger playing techniques? Can it be solved, maybe with a new Dorico 5 update? Is it possible to report it to developers?

Playback Techniques

Playing Techniques aren’t related to dynamics as far as I know - they are just indications that trigger Playback Techniques (what you choose in your Expression Map).

The developers will read this thread. They may even give you a solution or the reason why it isn’t doing what you want it to.

That’s ok, but when I use fp the key switch works, but it does not when I want to use sf: are there in the same category?

:man_shrugging:

The only thing I can think of is that fp etc are immediate dynamics rather than gradual.

Hopefully someone else will have the answer for you.

1 Like

Key Switches Kontakt v3.dorico (586,6 KB)
Trumpet Key Switches - expr maps + playing tech.doricolib.zip (114,4 KB)

Hi Daniel,
I created a custom Playing Technique little library inserting some cresc. and dim. with bravura font: of course, they’re not graphically fulfilling but it allow me to use key switches differently I couldn’t. Moreover, using Bravura font, I made some “sf family” triggering Playing Techniques: it’s the best I can do with my current knowledge and I hope someone could appreciate it.

Dorico treats sf and sfz differently (in this project at any rate). With sf, you have an “active technique” of sfz if you look at the key editor. If you change the playback technique to sfz in the Expression Map then you will see it’s selected correctly in the key editor and might then trigger your D0 keyswitch – I haven’t installed the Kontakt factory library so can’t test it.

In your crescendo, you must previously have an fp in the project unless there’s some other reason why this suddenly appears out of the blue. So this shows correctly as fp p.t with add-on as crescendo. It might be easier just to use a base switch and create a new crescendo p.t when something like this where you specifically want to change patch should then work.

The thing to always be aware of in a map is that unless your p.t’s are attributes (in other words only valid on the note on which they appear), you need to ensure that if you haven’t cancelled one technique before another starts then Dorico will be looking for a combination which must be specified in the map. Another way round this is to define Mutual Exclusions Groups.

Perfect, now is really clear and I can observe in the key editor the differences between p.t. and dynamics.

[quote="dko22, post:14, topic:944582”]
In your crescendo, you must previously have an fp in the project unless there’s some other reason why this suddenly appears out of the blue. So this shows correctly as fp p.t with add-on as crescendo. It might be easier just to use a base switch and create a new crescendo p.t when something like this where you specifically want to change patch should then work.
[/quote]

I don’t know where the fp is, I can’t see it at the moment. I have to say that indeed I don’t need a real dynamic, but something that can activate E0 and F0: how can I create it? Could you please suggest something to me, if you have time and patience?

[quote="dko22, post:14, topic:944582”]
The thing to always be aware of in a map is that unless your p.t’s are attributes (in other words only valid on the note on which they appear), you need to ensure that if you haven’t cancelled one technique before another starts then Dorico will be looking for a combination which must be specified in the map. Another way round this is to define Mutual Exclusions Groups.
[/quote]
I understand the “rules” of attributes , instead I don’t know ho Mutual Exclusions Group works.

Thank you for all, everything you and @DanielMuzMurray have done for resolving my Dorico problems were really useful and eye opening. Naturally, if you have other suggestions, please advise me.

well, you already have both of these in your Expression Map, although I’m not quite sure why cresc is an add-one and dim a base switch? I find add-ons most useful when they are invariably going to be used in combination with other patches – a typical example is con sord

As for Mutual Exclusion groups, the idea is simply to list patches in the same group which can never be combined. An obvious example is pizz v arco as they are opposites. Dorico does create a default list for you but sometimes you need to add to this or modify it.

[quote="dko22, post:16, topic:944582”]
although I’m not quite sure why cresc is an add-one and dim a base switch?
[/quote]
It seems to me cresc. and dim. are both add-ones, or I’m wrong? (take a look at my screenshot).

I decided to use add-ons because I can’t really use cresc. or dim., so I created a Playing Technique with cresc. in unicode, so I can use E0 and F0.

I have to analyze better Mutual Exclusion groups issue, because I gather there could be very interesting things. Thanks a lot!

How could I use the Dynamic Keyswitches (cyan colored keys) in a certain point of the note duration? In Logic Pro I usually write ghost notes, here in Dorico I don’t really know how to use that.

Forgive me but do “Dynamic Keyswitches” actually control dynamics? Or does it just mean that they control the speed of going between say “a” and “o” dynamically - and not instantly?

It may be a dumb question but I’m not familiar with this function.

EDIT
I’m only asking as normally gradual dynamics are handled by a continuous CC such as CC1 or CC11.

No dumb question at all, never.
It depends of library and it’s managed by velocity. For example: in Kontakt Factory Library, instrument “choir”, you can have a voice playing with keyswitch C0 (a) with Velocity 89 and, with the note sounding, you want to change with E0 (i) with the same Velocity, you maintain almost the same dynamic (the note need to play continuously); instead, if the E0 Velocity is 60, you have a decreasing volume, managing with dynamic release and dynamic fade, if I’m not wrong.
With other instrument of the same library, for example Orchestral, you can fade by a red keyswitch of sustain (natural, normal) to a cyan dynamic keyswitch of staccato (with the same operating principle of before), managing also Velocity in cyan keyswitch. So you can have a f long note ending in a p staccato.
Basically, calling them Dynamic Keyswitches could be misleading, I agree.