Expression maps with release articulations

I am trying to build an expression map for the Vir2 Mojo horns Kontakt set.
The way the key switches are laid is there is a set of articulations ( about 10 : sustain, staccato, etc) and then there is a set of release samples (about 7 : falls, poit, etc)

I am trying to set up the expression map so that I can just have the set of articulation and just the set of release samples and combine them together as needed.
I am hoping the groups will allow me to do this as it is possible to trigger multiple articulations at the same time. However it seems that more than one keyswitch cannot be sent at the same time with this way.
The only way I have found to make it work is to have a single articulation trigger both the notes required to play.
This means to get the release samples working with all the articulations would require me to set up over 70 combinations to allow for all the permutations.

Is there an easier way?

Yes, you can have up to 4 simultaneous articulations at once called GROUPS

Make sure your articulation types are all set to DIRECTION (not ATTRIBUTE),

in your case I would set all the key on articulations to GROUP 1 and the release ones to GROUP 2, that means you can only have one key on and one key off articulation valid at any one time, which is exactly what you are needing.

Mogular is right, and I’m afraid andyjh has misunderstood the use of groups…
What the receiving instrument actually receives is the data (top right of the VST Expression setup) that is generated by a slot (which indeed could contain several groups, but these are really only “markers”… see the link, below), and a slot can be triggered only by a single trigger note, hence, one slot per combination, therefore one remote trigger key per combination.
You might find this old post useful :wink:

Then I don’t get what the OP is expecting.

I use Expression maps all the time, I don’t ever use key switches, I only ever use the keyeditor articulation entry (key switches are not workable other than basic occasional switches, as I often have upto 8 articulation changes per bar).

You can have one key switch sending data to select 2 simultaneous articulations (so, yes you would have to program all the permutations this way), or you can have two simultaneous keys pressed together that select two articulations. So one key could be “on sample”, another key can be “release sample” - so you only have to set up the “key on” keys data, and the “key off” keys data, and then just press the two keys you need to match the combination needed. Cubase works out what to do. So the OP will need to enter 17 articulations commands, using 2 of the 17 keys to select any permutation.

The grouping is important to ensure that “key on” and “Key off” remain exclusive.

I think semantics are clouding the issue, I will give a shot to clarifying.

A problem with what follows (in the sample set I’m working with, Xsample Chamber Orchestra) is that it only works for direction, and not attribute. Possibly Mogular needs them to work as attributes. It would seem that it would work that way though.

Anyway, I think you can do as follows (I am using string articulations, but a sample is sample…)

Let’s say I am setting up a map for a keyswitch which, combined with one of three CC values, gets three kinds of pizz. I have to set up three sound slots. All share the keyswitch, each have different CC values.

One slot just has ‘pizz’ in Art. 1, and has the keyswitch and a CC for pizz
The second slot has pizz in Art 1, and ‘Bartok’ in Art 2, and just the CC for the bartok pizz
and the last has ‘pizz’ in Art. 1 and ‘Behind Bridge’ in Art 2, and just the CC for that kind of pizz.

In the Articulations lane and in Score edit you now have three articulation marks. Pizz, bartok, and behind bridge. I insert pizz; or pizz & bartok; or pizz & behind bridge, to get each of the respective articulations.

If I just place the 2nd or 3rd (bartok or behind) the result is a CC gets sent to the track without the keyswitch.

The point is that regardless of all else, a sound slot can only send the message in its Output Mapping pane, but by combining articulation marks you can get more data sent to the instrument. So if Mogular has staccato+fall he creates the staccato, and creates the fall articulations, and simply places fall right after staccato in Score or Key edit. Hope that makes sense. (It also seems to me that if they are both attributes the two switches will get sent simultaneously, but I can’t test that)

Writing this was as much an exercise to learn how to use expression maps as it was to help out (maybe more) so thanks for that!

Also thanks and props to vic_france and his post in the old forum (linked above) for helping me get my head around this. It definitely is not intuitive for me.

In fact, what can be done depends on the way the instrument responds to the keyswitches (independently of adding VST Expression into the equation)… If you can use one of your 10 “on” triggers, and then use one of the 7 release triggers while the note is still playing, then, yes, you need only 17 trigger notes… provided that they are all direction-type (or at least, that all the release articulations are direction-type, so that you can trigger it after the note has started). If, on the other hand, you have to set the release articulation before the note plays, then you need a remote key for every combination.
However, in both cases, they can all be in Group #1 :wink:. Just make sure that the data in the release slot doesn’t cancel any previous data from the last-triggered “on” slot.

Hi all, thanks for taking the time out to help answer this.
@andyjh - I tried your suggestion but at no time was I able to make Kontakt receive two keyswitches simultaneously, did you mean for the articulations to be sent at different times?

in which case vic_france, your final suggestion was the answer I needed.

its less elegant than the possibility of having one type of articulation in one group and another type in a different group, but if I name everything clearly it shouldn’t be too difficult.

As a follow-up question, is there anyway to control the colour of articulations in the key editor?

Not in the VST Expression lanes themselves, but the colours that you see (and can edit) in the centre pane of the VST Expression Editor will be used on the note events in the main body of the Key Editor window, when the color menu is set to “Sound Slot”.

ah thanks, I am still fairly new to Cubase and it is little details like that that I haven’t properly grasped yet.

(to me it reads like you’re doing pretty well already :wink: )

I will point out that I am using VSL libraries through a networked VEP (Vienna Ensemble Pro), so maybe this reacts differently to Kontakt.

I don’t use key switches in VSL, I use CC’s, again maybe keyswitches react differently to CC’s. But I can press two keys at once on the keyboard that will send two simultaneous articulation controls to the VSTi (VSL).

So the conclusion I would come to is that Cubase expression maps allow multiple simultaneous articulation controls to be sent, but it seems as though Kontakt does not support that.

In Kontakt I am using Xsample Chamber Ensemble, and can send two keyswitches at once, in this case the first is is to change keyswitch layers, the second the keyswitch itself. (I am not using remote keys, just articulations in key and score edit.)

(I do hope we are not confusing the number of keyswitches/CC# events that can be sent from a slot (which might be as many as 128 of each! :wink: ), with the number of remote keys that can be sent simultaneously from your keyboard to trigger VST Expression (only one slot at a time, and triggered only by a single remote key).