Feature reqest - Automation

[Safa]

Hello,
I have few feature reqests for new versions of Nuendo and they all concearn automation.

I quite like how real time writing automation is hadled in Nuendo, however in terms of editing copying and manually punching multiple automation parametres at once, it’s very slow.

1. Better abilities to copy, deleate and in general edit multiple lanes of automation.
   It would be quite nice to simpy copy all automation on selection on selected track and then simply paste that to another region, even enother track. (PT has it) I can do It manually by opening the same lanes on the same tracks, but it takes so much time… The same goes with geting rid of automation. I use preference where automation follows edit, so I can drag clips around without loosing their EQ, volume, sends settings. But sometimes I want to copy clips to tracks with very different settings. In that case I have to see all the automation lanes of that track and manually deleate the automation for that specific part. It would be easier, if i could just have a command to deleate all automation under my selection.

2. Better abilities to punch in selection from preview
   I know that this is not that complicated, but still to do it quickly, I have to use a macro, which sometimes can screw things up, if my tracks are not in the right “state”. Some more straightforward method would certainly help

3. Glide to all enabled
   Another PT feature which I miss. The ability with automation preview to set multiple parametres at once and then select region over which all of them glide from the previous value to the new one. When working with any type of surround audio, this is so helpfull!

Please Steinberg consider this.

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

Better abilities to punch in selection from preview

How would you like it to be different?

@Safa

1. Manually typing in automation points values.

I think you can already do that by selecting the point and typing it in in the info line at the top of the project window above the timeline.

[Safa]

@MattiasNYC

How would you like it to be different?

More straightforward command, like: write preview automation to loop on all selected tracks, regardless on their automation mode state. I know this seems nitpicky, but I do this so much, taht direct function like this would really help me

@MattiasNYC

I think you can already do that by selecting the point and typing it in in the info line at the top of the project window above the timeline.

Holly cow, you are right! I’ve always tried to type into the value on the lane itself, never noticed the value in info Line. Thanks!

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

like: write preview automation to loop on all selected tracks, regardless on their automation mode state.

So the difference would be to override automation mode on those tracks? To me that’s a bit scary, but the way we work is also probably a bit different. I always have my tracks follow global automation mode so whatever global is is what applies, and I set global using key commands. Actually, if you punch preview to loop I don’t really think automation mode matters unless it’s trim which I think is either broken or poorly designed, can’t remember.

[Safa]

Oh, I ment whather its in write or read. I have preatty good macro for punch in loop, but I always have to remember to put my tracks into read first, and still sometimes there is a hickup… What bothers me is that I have to be conscoius about the state of all my tracks that I want to punch in automation manually. If there would be a simple comand that punches all the previewed atributes on all tracks selected (and than swithech preview off), so I dont have to think about it when doing manual punch ins. And yes, it think trim manula punch in is broken in some cases, mainly send, which I discovered recently…

[MattiasNYC]

Can you incorporate auto write setting into your macro?

[Safa]

I would love to, but I found only toggle comand. So when track that I want to punch in is set to write, my macro is going to disable it before punching it.

[MattiasNYC]

Ah, got it. One of our feature requests for some time is to add options for that.

[Fredo]

@Safa

If there would be a simple comand that punches all the previewed atributes on all tracks selected (and than swithech preview off), so I dont have to think about it when doing manual punch ins.

I am missing something …

You can only write automation on tracks that are Write enabled.
When a track is Write enabled, it is automatically also in Read.
So, when activating “preview” and (to loop/to end/whatever) you can alter any parameter on any track and then punch these in when done.

Secondly, you can bypass the “preview” command.
For example: Lock the “To Loop” button in the automation panel.
Now you can modify any parameter within that loop, and it is written directly into that loop.

Bottom line, what I don’t understand is what you say about the status of your tracks.
When working with automation, any track is in Write and Read Mode.
Or at least in Read mode.
And when in Read mode, you obviously can’t write any automation to that track.

What am I missing?

Fredo

[Safa]

Well that is actually my point here, but lets go in order.

@Fredo

You can only write automation on tracks that are Write enabled.
When a track is Write enabled, it is automatically also in Read.
So, when activating “preview” and (to loop/to end/whatever) you can alter any parameter on any track and then punch these in when done.

This is what I’m doing now with my macro.

@Fredo

Secondly, you can bypass the “preview” command.
For example: Lock the “To Loop” button in the automation panel.
Now you can modify any parameter within that loop, and it is written directly into that loop.

I could use just the locked loop and all of automation, that I touched, would be staticly written to my selection. (and In specific cases I do that) But sometimes I don’t want to do that, I want to first hear the preview of what I’m doing without actually changing anything. If there is allready automation written, I would overwrite it.

So here is what I would like to have to better fasten thease types of workflow, and the reasons behind it:
When I have a selection on number of tracks, that I want to manually staticly change the automation, I first have to make shure that they are all in write mode, than I can change parametres under preview, and at the end punch in loop. All good. What I don’t like about it is, that I have to either have all my tracks in write, or make shure (when using my macro), that all tracks selected are not in write. I dont like having all my tracks in write (at the work stage, when I do thease things) because, its very easy by touch of a hand to screw something up, to create automation lane where I never wanted any. And making shure that the tracks that I selected are in the read state is no fun either, I might have just ended writing automation by hand on them. This all is slowing down the flow of my work (I do this constantly).
So what if there were the comand to simply write previewed automation to selection regardles on the track state. And yes even if the tracks were not in the “right” write state! Heresy you say? Well maybe just an upgrade to what was established years ago… Think about it, I don’t think that anybody selects something on the timeline unconsciously, and the comand is very direct: Just punch into the slection everything I touched under preview.

[Fredo]

@Safa

But sometimes I don’t want to do that, I want to first hear the preview of what I’m doing without actually changing anything. If there is allready automation written, I would overwrite it.

That’s no correct.
Whatever you do, whatever you have changed will be undone when you de-activate "preview.
The new/altered automation is committed by pushing “Punch”, not earlier.

You can also use the automation branches, which gives you an undo.

HTH
Fredo

[Safa]

@Fredo

That’s no correct.
Whatever you do, whatever you have changed will be undone when you de-activate "preview.
The new/altered automation is committed by pushing “Punch”, not earlier.

I thought you already described this in your first point. This is still the way I do it with my macro. It’s gonna automaticly enable and at the end disable the loop. I thought you were talkin about workflow without the preview function.

@Fredo

You can also use the automation branches, which gives you an undo.

Still hardly ideal. I don’t want to undo things. I want to do them right the first time. Quickly.

[Fredo]

@Safa

So what if there were the comand to simply write previewed automation to selection regardles on the track state.

I am still having a hard time understanding the issue.
Well, actually, I think I see your issue: You simply don’t want to have all your tracks in Write/read.
Which is contradicting the way people commonly work …

First of all, being able to write automation on a track that is not in “Write” mode, would violate any rule and logical thinking. It is opening a hughe can of worms.

Seondlly, the reason that you don’t want to have your tracks in “Write” also applies (and even more) to writing automation on a track that isn’t in “Write” state.

…because, its very easy by touch of a hand to screw something up, to create automation lane where I never wanted any …

@Safa

And making shure that the tracks that I selected are in the read state is no fun either, I might have just ended writing automation by hand on them.

That I don’t understand either:
-How can you write/change/trim automation whitout knowing where you come from and go to?
-When a track is in “Read”, you cannot write automation; it only reads.
-How can you mix a track into a project when there are a number of tracks that don’t reflect their actual state? (If a track is not in Read, it’s simply out of balance)

I do understand you fear of accidently touching/altering something.
I see many people struggling with this.

The solution is discipline, structured workflow and housekeeping.
I.e. Work in a structured way and make sure your projects are clean and documented.

I work in Post and a regular project has something between 100 and 450 tracks.
Any track resides in it’s specific folder (DX/PFX/FX/Foley Steps/Foley Props/MX/ect …)
I lock all folders I am not working in.

So I understand you concerns, I simply don’t think that being able to write automation on tracks that are not Write-armed, is the solution. On the contrary.

Unless I am missing something crucial.
And even If I am missing something, it doesn’t make sense.
It’s like “all cars must drive on the right side of the road, unless you are English”.

Fredo

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

what if there were the comand to simply write previewed automation to selection regardles on the track state. And yes even if the tracks were not in the “right” write state!

So I just checked and the project logical editor allows you to set an automation state regardless of the current state. In other words you can tie a key command to a project logical command that says to turn write on, and you could subsequently do the opposite, all in a macro. So a punch-out macro could be;

1. Apply macro - “Selected tracks auto write on”
2. “Punch” auto
3. Apply macro - “Selected tracks auto write off”

Now you have your auto write turned on for all tracks that are selected, automation is written from the preview buffer, and then all tracks have auto write turned off.

@Safa

@Fredo

you can also use the automation branches, which gives you an undo.

Still hardly ideal. I don’t want to undo things. I want to do them right the first time. Quickly.

But if you do things right the first time you don’t have to not have tracks in auto write, correct? The only reason you want to be able to write automation to a track that doesn’t have write turned on is because you want write to be turned off exactly so you don’t make a mistake. But if you “do things right the first time” you’re not making those mistakes.

And then you have to now add all those times where you won’t realize that you might have selected a track accidentally and are now write-enabling it and writing automation to it. That’s another mistake. And in a sense it’s even worse because you have zero indication of it if you toggle auto-write back off after automation has been written. In other words if you have a track selected by mistake and it’s in auto-write off and you then accidentally write automation on it and then the macro turns auto-write off again you won’t see the change. You won’t even see that it was possible that you wrote automation to the track by mistake.

By using the established “best practice” you would see where you could have written automation and where you couldn’t have, at least until you change the automation state ‘manually’.

I guess the short version I’m getting at here is that there are no guarantees against human error here, and your other way of working won’t provide a guarantee.

[Safa]

@MattiasNYC

So I just checked and the project logical editor allows you to set an automation state regardless of the current state. In other words you can tie a key command to a project logical command that says to turn write on, and you could subsequently do the opposite, all in a macro. So a punch-out macro could be;

1. Apply macro - “Selected tracks auto write on”
2. “Punch” auto
3. Apply macro - “Selected tracks auto write off”

Now you have your auto write turned on for all tracks that are selected, automation is written from the preview buffer, and then all tracks have auto write turned off.

Oh, that I didn’t think of, I have to try that, it might be much precise solution. Thank you Mattias, you are beeing most helpfull

Look guys, I think I have to elaborate further on my workflow so you get my point.
I’m preparing/constructing/editing very complicated project with lots of foley and effects. I’m a big fan of using the channel eqalizer and filters for something that would be best described as an enviroment and distance colouring and sometimes even for moving filters. I also use qute a lot of reverbs and delays as sends for the same purposes. So I’m constantly writing automation manually to events using preview so they would have the right starting poits. I’m than quite often riding faders (especially for dramaturgy puroposes) and than readjusting the eq, sends automation that was set before. I don’t have all my tracks in write all the time (I’m gonna do that during the final mix), but rather enabeling it for those fader rides and then disabeling, when that particular snippet is done. I don’t like having everything in write enabled, I hate it from protools, where I would start tinkering with some effect or pushed “mute” while play and it would create unnescesary automation which would screw that track until I found it. So that is when my macro comes in handy, after preview is set, it triggers selected tracks into write, activates looop, punches preview and than deactivates write. But macro can only get you so far. When i do this hundred times a day, sometimes it doesnt work perfectly, especially when working with multiple tracks, sometimes it leaves some in write state after. Or I I would finish with writing automation with loop enabled, so again, the macro is going to first disable it (or lock it) and than fail. I have to be conscoius about it all, which is slowing me down. So a direct command would be way better, PT has it and it’s better.
But I would even go furter and not leave the tracks state to be the determinant point, whether automation is going to be manually written. If i select a selection over some tracks, than i toggle preview and start changing parameters, why would it be nescessary to have tracks in write enabled mode to change the automation? I can edit automation lanes by hand just fine in read. I don’t see any reason where it could screw something up. “Writing automation when its in reed mode is scary!”" Well you would know you are doing it, you would litteraly pres one button and it would afect only selected. You hardly select something you didn’t want to, am I right?

But over all, you have to agree that there could be signifficat impovements when dealing with automation in Nuendo. At least to the PT standard.

And lastly. Why would you theorize the state and organization of my project? Trust me, I know what I’m doing, that is why I’m writing thease very specific reqests. If my sessions vere disorganized, I would be dealing with something else

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

a direct command would be way better, PT has it and it’s better.

Are you talking about ‘write auto to all enabled’ now? option+command+/ ? I don’t think that works smoothly if you have read enabled and preexisting automation though - in that case you need write to be enabled, no? Or do you only need to have parameters set to enabled?

@Safa

I would even go furter and not leave the tracks state to be the determinant point, whether automation is going to be manually written. If i select a selection over some tracks, than i toggle preview and start changing parameters, why would it be nescessary to have tracks in write enabled mode to change the automation? I can edit automation lanes by hand just fine in read.

I’m not Steinberg of course but my guess is that it’s either something to do with having chosen an automation system from a specific piece of ‘traditional’ hardware (like a Euphonix console) or possibly that it’s about thinking about input control-hardware which you may touch by accident and thereby protecting you from doing so. I mean, it’s exactly what you have been talking about as a risk which is why you turn “write” off on tracks by default.

@Safa

I don’t see any reason where it could screw something up. “Writing automation when its in reed mode is scary!”" Well you would know you are doing it, you would litteraly pres one button and it would afect only selected. You hardly select something you didn’t want to, am I right?

You’re not really right, no. Because your whole point is that sometimes we make mistakes. So just like you’d accidentally touch something you’d “select something you didn’t want to”. It’s the same problem in principle.

Of course by “you” I don’t mean “Safa”, I mean “people” in general. So in your case perhaps you’re able to select more accurately than you are touching the correct parameters, but I’m guessing some other people would be different.

I’m not opposed to alternate functionality as long as it’s optional btw.

→ Anyway, I think using the project logical editor solves your problem.

[Safa]

It didn’t solve it, but I have to admit, its more elegant solution, thank you (sometimes it still leaves the tracks in write, i suspect, that some of them get automaticly deselected after the punch in). So still, direct comand would be better, macros should be for something way more special, I can’t be the only one who is working like this, or am I ?

@MattiasNYC

Are you talking about ‘write auto to all enabled’ now? option+command+/

it would seem so, but no. And I agree this comand is quite brutal (but for that reason also usable in some cases, and I would love to see it in Nuendo too). but I’m talking about the hidden Write Automation to Selection feature of the automation pannel, It writes only whatever you have altered in preview and it is a single command (that doesn’t even have a shortcut wtf!) And you are right even that only works when the tracks are touch/latch/write enabled. I just think that there is no real reason for that because…

@MattiasNYC

You’re not really right, no. Because your whole point is that sometimes we make mistakes. So just like you’d accidentally touch something you’d “select something you didn’t want to”. It’s the same problem in principle.

I still don’t see, how it would be possible to select something by accident. Lets go through this step by step. I make a selection of clips, tracks and I establish loop over that selection. I activate preview. I change some parametres of the tracks that i want to alter. I punch the previewed values of selected into the loop. Where could I slip up and write something that I didn’t meen to?
As it is now, I have to make sure the tracks are in the right state and the autoamtion is in right state before punching in the preview to the loop. And after it’s done, i have to make sure the tracks are in ther right state and the automation is in the right state for my next step, whatever it will be. The macro only gets me so far (even tho, its better thanks to you). Why would it be weird being able to do this whenever? Again, we can manualy edit automation lanes regardless on the track state and that is allright for everybody. I’m just thinking about ways how to fasten the editing of multiple automations at once.

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

I still don’t see, how it would be possible to select something by accident.

Some people don’t see how it would be possible to change automation on something by accident. Same thing. It really goes both ways.

Why would it be harder to select a track by accident than it is to automate that track’s parameter(s) by accident?

@Safa

I can’t be the only one who is working like this, or am I ?

No, but maybe a small minority. Every engineer I’ve worked with on the same project keeps relevant types of tracks write-enabled depending on the task at hand. If it’s editing/mixing production sound then all of those tracks (dialog) are write-enabled. If it’s sfx editing then all of the sfx tracks are write-enabled. And so on.

@Safa

I’m just thinking about ways how to fasten the editing of multiple automations at once.

Plenty fast over here…

[Safa]

@MattiasNYC

Why would it be harder to select a track by accident than it is to automate that track’s parameter(s) by accident?

Because if you have all track write enabled by default than you can’t really do anything just for the moment while play. For example I want to quickly check if one part would be better without one specific track, so I mute it. Big mistake, now i have a mute automation written. I want to change a parameter on one delay that I’m using. Again, big mistake, now its automated… (And I know, that you are going to say, I should disable write for that specific insert, but later I’m gonna write some automation into it, so I have to swithch it again.) Again I’m not saying it’s bad or broken, i’m just thinking about ways, how to make it even better.

@MattiasNYC

Plenty fast over here…

please tell me how.
I find this the most lacking area in Nuendo compared to Protools. Or maybe I don’t see the possibilitees?

[MattiasNYC]

@Safa

Because if you have all track write enabled by default than you can’t really do anything just for the moment while play. For example I want to quickly check if one part would be better without one specific track, so I mute it. Big mistake, now i have a mute automation written. I want to change a parameter on one delay that I’m using. Again, big mistake, now its automated… (And I know, that you are going to say, I should disable write for that specific insert, but later I’m gonna write some automation into it, so I have to swithch it again.) Again I’m not saying it’s bad or broken, i’m just thinking about ways, how to make it even better.

The above has less to do with accidents happening though.

Also, you can’t do the above in PT either. If you have a track in write in PT and you grab an EQ gain knob and start fiddling with it auto is going to write to that track. You’d have to disable write to be able to move the parameter without writing it.

Preview suspends automation and if you don’t want to keep what you put in the preview buffer you can just press preview a second time and it’ll revert to what was there.

@Safa

@MattiasNYC

Plenty fast over here…

please tell me how.
I find this the most lacking area in Nuendo compared to Protools. Or maybe I don’t see the possibilitees?

I don’t know what to say really. I just don’t accidentally change parameters on the wrong tracks that often. I keep a lot of tracks automation write enabled and following global by default. Then I use key commands to change automation mode globally. I have key commands for functions and macros to trigger different automation scenarios.

Quite frankly I find Nuendo to be much faster for mixing than Pro Tools, and a lot of that has to do with key commands (and macros).