Feature Request - Enable/disable layers

VST Live
1

I would like to request a new way to enable and disable layers, that works differently to the mute function and is more flexible that having different parts setup. This is modelled on how different parts can be enabled/disabled on my Fantom 08. I’ve discussed something like this in an earlier topic, but I’ve now fully worked out how I think it needs to work and it is a separate feature in itself, not a change to muting.

When a part is disabled on the Fantom 08, it does not cut the sound immediately like a mute. Notes already sounding continue to play but no new notes will sound. Controllers are dealt with in a smart way after the part is disabled. If the sustain pedal is down, the disabled part still receives the pedal up message. Similarly, if the pitch bend is already in use, the disabled part will respond when the pitch bend is released and return the sound to the original pitch. However, it will not respond to a new pitch bend message once disabled.

I frequently play songs that have multiple layers. On the Fantom 08, I can switch them on or off instantly in a seamless way that does not disrupt what I am playing. I have not been able to achieve the same when using VST Live. The problems I have are
a) Mute kills a layer instantly, so a chord I’ve just played dies immediately, leaving a big hole in the sound till I play the next chord with a different layer.
b) I can use the volume to turn a layer off but again, this kills the sound immediately. Additionally, if the chord is still sounding (e.g. slow release pads), the sound resumes again if I bring the volume back up.
c) Having multiple parts does work if I can plan the transitions in advance but there are far too many variations of layers on/off to program all in advance. Just three layers would need 8 parts. I have some songs with eight layers, which would require 256 parts to cover all combinations.

Please could you add an enable/disable function that stops new notes from sounding but keeps the existing notes playing, just like my Fantom 08. And make it midi mappable too.

Thank you.

2

What you describe is what actually happens in VST Live when you switch Parts. Layers of a Part get activated when a Part is selected, and deactivated when a Part is deselected (as in, when another Part was selected).

In that case, the deactivated Layers continue to sound until all Note Off messages have been received, and the Sustain pedal has been released if any. That is pretty much what you request.

Layer Mute mutes the Layer Channel. But this also lets the Layer omit processing. That is questionable, because when you re-engage processing by unmuting, you get the unwanted effect that you describe. However it has the benefit of less unnecessary processing. We could add a preference for that, the problem is that users hardly tend to think “resource-aware”, and then the complaints come in (“I can run 1000 instances with software xx”). But as that is more of a standard way, we should add it nevertheless, probably add a warning.

Then there is the problem of dealing with other plugin processing when Songs or Parts are changed. A plugin of the currently active Part (such as a Stack insert), or currently active Song (Song Groups etc) may become deactivated when another Part/Song is activated. This simply stops the plugin processing. When you switch back to the prior Part/Song, that plugin again will simply resume and pick up where it left.

The only way to avoid that would be to continue to process that plugin “silently” until…well, until what? We can measure its output (also cpu demanding) and say “stop when signal is below threshold”. But especially during switching phases, where a lot is going on already, that may cause significant stress on the CPU, which one may prefer to avoid. For this we have also planned a preference.

Again, we sort of shy back from this - not because of the work involved (it’s already done for Layers when deactivated), but because that will lead to users complaining, and comparing apples and onions again.

Nevertheless, you are right to ask for both of these options, and we will implement it when we can, thanks for your input!

Btw no, unfortunately we cannot tell a plugin blackbox “pls stop, but gradually”.

3

Wow, its always more complex when you look in detail isn’t it. I hadn’t thought about other plug-in processing. That’s too much for me, will leave those difficult questions with you!

The way it is currently done for parts works well. It would be great if the same could be applied to switching a layer on/off. I guess the mute option preference would work fine for this to save an extra control. That would make a big difference for me.

Whilst we are discussing part switching, I’ve done a little more testing and found a couple of things. I guess these are design choices rather than bugs in light of your detailed explanation above, but worth highlighting

  1. For sounds with extended release times, if a key has already been released (i.e. Note up received), the sound is cut abruptly when the part is changed. The sound is only preserved whilst a note is being held down or the sustain pedal depressed. For pads and drones with long release times, this “sound remain” feature doesn’t work. Not sure how that could be resolved.
  2. Only the Sustain pedal is carried across a part change. If using Sostenuto instead, the sound is cut abruptly when the part changes. On switching back to the original part, the original notes held by Sostenuto come back to life just as they were left (same as my bug raised for the sostenuto on mute).

Could you consider treating the Sostenuto pedal input on CC66 the same as the Sustain pedal CC 64? In fact, I would suggest also putting the Soft pedal CC67 into this same group too. Having layers come back to life with supposedly long dead chords is a scary thing in live performance. It was fully resolved on mute/part switching for the Sustain pedal, it needs to be the same for the Sustenuto as well if possible.

Thank you!

4

I would like to add something positive for a change. It is easy to forget how much stuff just works or is amazing straight out the box when on these forums.

VST Live works better than my Fantom 08 for using pads and layers with Sostenuto and is my preferred choice because of one feature - CC mapping. I can configure my pedal to behave differently in different layers. Layer 1 can be sustain, layer 2 can be sostenuto, thanks to remapping CC64 to CC66 on layer 2. This enables me to use a single pedal for both functions and to play a lead keys part over a sustained pad with a single pedal. I do this all the time and it works brilliantly (aside from resurrecting long dead chords on unmute). VST Live is the first time I’ve been able to do this and I love it.

The Fantom cannot map the pedal differently for different parts. To achieve the same I have to bring two pedals and try and not fall over when pressing both simultaneously, one with each foot. I need to build a contraption that will trigger both pedals together with one foot!

CC Mapping per layer is such a great feature.

5

Good point. Next version will treat sustenuto like sustain pedal everywhere it is used (reset controllers, in particular), and omit surpressing during a disable period.

While it should be ignored during disable as well, not sure if it should also be reset with all notes off/reset controllers actions…and then, what about legato switch (CC68)? Any other come to mind? Also, these controllers are excluded with MIDI track chase actions, others to consider for that as well? Or all the same?

6

Looked a bit deeper. We will treat all cc from #64 to (and including) #69 this way for transitions, and chase events, makes sense. Next version.

7

Yes, treating CC64- CC69 the same makes a lot of sense, I agree.

One other event that springs to mind is the pitch bend. If a layer is muted whilst pitch bend is triggered before I release my pitch bend paddle, I would expect that the mute would trigger the pitch bend off message. As it currently stands, if I If I unmute the layer a few songs later, the pitch is still subject to the bend before I pressed mute.
i.e If on my synth lead part, I use pitch bend that drops the pitch from G to F and then mute the layer before releasing the pitch bend paddle, 10 mins later I unmute the lead part again, I play a G but an F sounds. All notes remain 2 semi tones down until I press and release the pitch bend paddle again. Very unexpected.

Back to cc66, v2.1.4 has fixed my zombie chords now you are including the Sostenuto pedal. Thank you so much, appreciate the quick turn around on this. I’d still love a quick enable/disable layer but I can make do with the mute button on layers for the time being.

8

Pitchbend is also reset when changing Parts, but not when unmuting.
If we consider a bypass function, the unmute function should reset all these #ccs, correct?