feature request: more pre fader inserts

I’d like to make a feature request for additional Pre-Fader inserts.

I often run out of inserts and don’t use the post fader inserts (as level changes/automation before a dynamic effects is undesirable).

Again, other DAWs are gaining headway with their feature set, Logic can expands its insert count as needed.

Workaround currently is to make a bus and assign that channel to a bus, but this is undesirable as it creates more assets to manage (not being able to hide tracks in large sessions less is more).


Or maybe just make pre/post a user option… that would be just as handy for me…


This has been discussed in great lenghth before by the betatesters.
The problem is that the routing would get extremely complex, maybe even impossible to manage without removing stuff. Just imagine what would happen with the signal flow when you switch -say insert3- (and other slots also filled) from pre-to post. So this is technically nearly impossible.


Digital Performer does just that.


So think with me… this is how the current audio path look likes:

==>>> Input gain
==>>> Phase
==>>> Pre-insert(1)
==>>> Pre-insert(2)
==>>> Pre-insert(3)
==>>> Pre-insert(4)
==>>> Pre-insert(5)
==>>> Pre-insert(6)
==>>> EQ
==>>> Pre send (s)
==>>> Fader
==>>> Post send(s)
==>>> Post Insert(7)
==>>> Post Insert(8)
==>>> Pan
==>>> Outputs

Now, switch Pre-insert (4) to Post insert (?), and try to figure out what would need to happen to the signal path to make everything work.
OK, a way of doing it might be moving the Pre-insert slot (4) to a destination somewhere after the Post Send (7) or (8). Leaving the slot in it’s current position (4) (relative to the other insert slots) would become nearly impossible due to routing problems. Then imagine what would need to happen with assigned sends and send-pannings; for example in a surround configuration. And while doing that, why can’t we have an option to have the EQ pre-/and post inserts too, just to top it off. (FWIW, I would really like this)

My point was that we might have to sacrifice other things for it, that is not something that is as easy done as we migt think… Not saying that it is not possible though. And I have no idea how DP does it and what the consequences are. All I am saying is that it would be much easier to create “unlimited” pre-/and post- inserts and just move the plugin from one place to another.


please don’t break the routing…

I don’t care about post fade inserts, I want more pre fade inserts.

I don’t know how Performer does it, either. But it is one of the very small handful of things about it I actually like.
Your “unlimited” idea works just fine for me, too… not a huge issue, as the “route to a new group with more slots” workaround works fine in my case-- I always make a premaster and master group before the output bus just for this purpose; it just isn’t very elegant.


I’m totally with Fredo here.
We really need unlimited PreFade inserts - 2 PostFade are plenty (well, I could use 3 at times) enough for most use but it is the prefade that are short - especially given I often have to use up 3 slots for a single process in surround given the appalling lack of plugs that actually cater for sensible surround handling (Thanks & Kudos to those who do cater for us - you know who you are) and as such force me to use 3 slots if I need to do something as simple as apply EQ independently instead of bludgeoning away at it with global operation.

Regardless, some people need it, surround people definitely need it, it CAN be done and in fact IS already done by the competition… so if Cubendo wants to stay on top they should make it happen. Nuff said.

But nobody answered me HOW it’s been done.

Just answer this simple question: When changing Pre-insert slot #2 into a Post-Insert slot, then where exactly should it end up? Post-Insert # 1, 2, 3 , 4 , 5 ? And when changing back to Pre-Insert, should it return to it’s original #2 slot, or should it go to the Top or bottom of the list? And how would the user know that this slot will snap back to Pre-Insert #2?

As far as I can see it, having an “unlimited” number of pre- and post- inserts is much more flexible, clear and functional. But I can be wrong though …
I have every respect for another opinion, and I would very much like to exhange opinions about it, but it can’t be done without bringing facts and correct information to the table.


Hey Fredo,
As I’ve stated previously I personal don’t have a need for post fader inserts, so I don’t need more post fade inserts.

You can’t put a compressor there, can’t put distortion, or any effect that models non-linearities cause level automation will change how hard these effects are being hit (may be undesirable in most cases)… what would I put post fader? A reverb? Why not make a send just in case I may want something else to go to the verb? I don’t find the post fader inserts useful.

As far as pre fader insert I need more and it sound like others do too (especially surround peeps).

As far as your question, try out logic (for unlimited inserts) and DP (for movable pre/post fader divider). But I’ll try to answer your question…

First off I don’t think anyone is suggesting there be a pre/post switch for each insert so forget that idea. In DP there is a little divider graphic between the inserts graphics. Where ever you drag the bar is where the channel splits from pre to post.

You have a bunch of inserts…

A - EQ (pre)
B - comp (pre)
C - EQ (pre)
D - chorus (pre)

E - reverb (post)

…if you move the bar down…

A - EQ (pre)
B - comp (pre)
C - EQ (pre)

D - chorus (post)
E - reverb (post)

…get it? Easy.

OK, That explains it.
As I said earlier, it can’t be just a pre/post user option for each insert.

So, I don’t think this can be an argument, since suggesting unlimited pre- and post inserts is way more than a limited number of inserts which you can move (not switch) from pre- to post.
Thereby the aruments “DP or whoever does exatly that” are completely irrelevant.

Thanks for clearing that up though.

Oh yes Fredo you are right. back in that post I was under the impression you had some idea of how DP behaved.

You know what would REALLY be cool along this same vain…

If there was two bars to slide around between inserts… one to set pre/post point and another to set freeze point. Example: you wanna freeze only the first insert (lets say melodyne or drumagog plugin) but not the remaining inserts (EQ, comp etc that you haven’t dialed in yet). Sort of like how instrument tracks give you the option to freeze only the instrument and not the inserts.

This would speed up session load times, save times, memory usage, etc if could freeze just these type of plugins and continue working with the flexibility of a mostly unfrozen track.

I could really take advantage of more pre inserts.
I’ve been doing my last project in Logic 9 (at the request of an Audio Director I work with) and I have to say, the unlimited add inserts as you go is a very, very nice way to work. Especially for Sound Design and extreme processing/signal manipulation.

Its definitely one of the few things in Logic that I prefer to Nuendo so I really hope unlimited inserts come to Nuendo someday too.