"final syllable at end of line" setting lets final syllable intersect with immediate dynamic

… when in the middle of the bar. It should end before the beat, just like dynamic lines and hairpins do.

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This is true as demonstrated. But I think it makes more sense and reads better to have a continuation of dashes after the final syllable. You can get that by adding “-” as a suffix.

I’m unable to reproduce this so easily as apparently the two of you are. When I have a gradual dynamic ending at the same position of an immediate dynamic, I end up with the immediate dynamic moving vertically to avoid the end of the gradual dynamic.

I tried it again – The difference is whether the final point is on a downbeat or not (as illustrated).

I still need a bit more help in reproducing this. If you have a project that demonstrates the issue, please attach it here.

Here’s one – Crescendo Overlap.dorico (909.3 KB)
(Just trying to help; not concerned about this issue.)

Honestly, that was kind of the former behavior and that’s something I had never seen in an actual score and made me mad. Since 5.1, I have used the new option with great pleasure and I haven’t experienced that collision… But that could be because I was lucky!

I guess traditionally the last syllable of the word comes well before the destination dynamic* – although the gradual dynamic is understood to continue past the last syllable to there. I would prefer that to be the default behavior. I tried making this happen with space or non-breaking space as a suffix, but that still makes dashes.

*approximately where it shows with trailing dashes, i.e. equidistant from the endpoint

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Thank you for your input @MarcLarcher and @Mark_Johnson, you are both absolutely right: in all editions I can find, the line stops well before the next immediate dynamic, but semantically continues up to it. So I think Dorico’s implementation is just not right.

I’m sorry to say that the current intended solution of moving the immediate dynamic vertically seems bizarre to me. you never see that in real editions, right? Consecutive dynamics are always aligned vertically as far as I know.

For both engraving and playback, it would be enough for me to be able to move the endpoint back in engrave mode. But this seems to be another bug: only the beginning of the line can be moved, not the end.

Here are 3 random Henle examples (after searching “cre-scen-do henle” on Google).



I honestly think it’s absolutely doable with Dorico, especially since 5.1. Just make sure you shorten the gradual dynamic a bit so that it looks as you want it to!
Nitpicking a bit: there’s still some improvement available in the “poco a poco de-cresc-en-do”: it would be really nice to have it like in those examples, bar 12 of first page, with only spaces (no dashes, lines, hyphens, whatever) between “poco a poco” words, and then the hyphenated cresc or decresc.

Thanks for the examples. I notice in all three the final syllable comes only a couple of beats before the destination, which I suppose is more like the usual practice than what I said.

I might suggest we be content with shortening the gradual dynamic in just that way – except that playback is affected: If e.g. the cresc. does not abut the f, it increases by the default one dynamic level, because it doesn’t “know” the destination level.

In testing this, I discovered something else that affects the original point: The presence of an immediate dynamic at the start of a verbal gradual one helpfully shifts the latter to the right. But it causes the whole hyphenated beast to shift, not just the first syllable. Try starting at ppp and see what I mean. This is probably why Daniel hadn’t reproduced the condition himself.

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You can always modify it in the dynamics lane if it doesn’t fit the needs :wink:

The only thing is that playback is not automatically right if you shorten the cre-scen-do in “p cre-scen-do f” in write mode (it will go to mp instead of f at the last syllable). If you would be able to shorten it in engrave mode it would work perfectly. But you can drag the end handle of the gradual dynamic all you want, it doesn’t move on the page.

I’d rather have a perfect engraving and modify the curves in the dynamics lane…

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Yes, and of course another workaround is to hide a desired dynamic right at the end of a shortened cresc. or dim. But I’m just mentioning the knock-on effects for completeness.

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