Force Duration and Triplets

I’m trying to apply dynamics to triplets, where the rhythmic placement of the dynamics is important. So, I’m inputting triplets, turning on force duration, and then trying to tie the notes. But the force duration doesn’t seem to be taking hold?

Force Duration not working?

When you tie notes together, combining them into one, the second takes on the ‘forced’ attribute of the first. To make this work you must force duration on the first chord (even if, by itself, it doesn’t need it). Then when you tie to the following chord, they will all be forced.

Ah, but I guess this doesn’t show it, but the previous chord IS already locked duration. So this doesn’t seem to solve the issue.

Seems to work for me.
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Remove the items on every note, force duration on them all, and then apply the ties. Should work.

When you say “remove the items” do you mean remove the dynamics? Tried that and got this result.

Force Duration not working? 2

If you copy the dynamics from an instrument that has the correct rhythm, they will be placed at the correct grid position…

I’m struggling to understand your need. Is this for accurate playback of something? or for accurate notation?

Accurate notation. I’m looking to have the peaks and valleys of the dynamics at specific rhythmic points while not having audible rebowing. If I just do whole notes and place the dynamics at the rhythmic positions, it won’t be precise enough, players will just know “earlier in the bar” or “middle of the bar” or “later in the bar” without knowing they’re supposed to peak together on the offbeat of beat 2, for example.

OK. Force duration from left to right - and then tie (as @Mark_Johnson noted).

And rather than use two quarter triplets per bar. Just use one half note triplet. Which will be much clearer to the players.

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Well, I do have a spot where it speeds up to actually moving at quarter triplets, but that’s getting fast enough that I probably won’t worry about ties vs rebowings anymore (since they’d probably have to rebow for the effect at that speed anyways). But I don’t understand what you mean by “force duration from left to right”? Everything has force duration activated. Or are you saying I should turn it off on some of them?? If I turn off force duration on anything on any of these bars, the rhythm notation immediately gets lost.

I’ll also note that I don’t appear to have any issue when I move OUT of triplets (a triplet notated bar to a duple bar), that I can tie over and the forced durations maintain across the bars.

Well that’s fine. The point is that if you force duration and then tie from a prior note, that force duration will not apply, unless those prior note also have forced duration…

If you look at the last Gif I uploaded, you should see that I have force duration activated on both the notes on the left AND the right separately before I engage ties. So I’m thinking this is actually a glitch rather than a workflow error now.

Hi Sergei, Could you try that again, but have the first bar be non-triplet values? It seems to work fine when both bars are triplets, or both bars are duple, or even if the first bar is triplets but the second bar is duple. The issue seems to only happen when trying to tie from duple into triplet bars.

Sorry - I can’t replicate this.

Hmm. Did you try making duple tied rhythms in the first bar and then triplet tied rhythms in the second bar, and then tie them together?

Or alternatively, can you think of a different method for inputting this material? It seems like I have to put the rhythm in, then force duration, and then tie. So I’m failing to see a different workflow to get the desired notation.

Sorry, I meant the ties. My thought didn’t match what I wrote :sweat_smile:

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I think it is the order of operations that matter. Place your durations, cut all ties, place dynamics, then force duration, and tie all. This is essentially what I did.

Apologies for going rather off-topic, but it just caught my eye that you seem to be writing divisi material without making use of the divisi feature. Is this still very much a sketch version, or is there another reason?

@Alexander_Ploetz I use divisi staves when it’s an aid to reading. Something as simple as holding a note in an unchanging (or slowly changing) chord doesn’t merit all of the page turns and challenges for the players to skip staves as they move from system to system.

Elsewhere in the score I have violas div a3 with harmonics. If that was on a single staff, it would be a confusing mess (3 notes, 3 diamond notes, and 6 sets of ties all bunched up together), so there I used the divisi functionality to split them apart. Even then, I’m not totally confident it’s the right call, I mostly use it when the divisi parts are doing distinctly different things, especially when cross-voicings are involved.

@Sergei_Mozart Wow, very strange. I just opened a blank session and wrote out what you did in your example, and experienced ZERO problems.

I went back to the actual score, deleted and re-input the quarter triplets, locked, and tied, and had ZERO problems. Worked great! I cannot tell what’s different this time than before, inputting dynamics before or after locking doesn’t seem to make a difference, and I’ve added dynamics before ties in both cases.

But then I went to the half note triplets and did the same thing (delete, re-input, add (or don’t add) dynamics, lock, tie) and the locked durations still gets overwritten.

In fact, if I just select from the left and repeatedly hit the tie command, I can watch as the rhythms get eaten up one by one as the tie connects to the next note! -_-