Would it be possible to have an option in Wavelab’s preferences to give it exclusive access to the Core Audio inputs and outputs? Basically making sure no other apps have access to Core Audio while this option is chosen.
It seems there’s a slight degradation going on with how Apple’s Core Audio system handles things when Core Audio is open for all apps. Beeing able to give Wavelab exclusive access (making other apps not able to use Core Audio) could be a nice feature. Apps like Audionirvana and HQPlayer seem to be able to bypass much of the Core Audio layers (summing, src, dither etc) that makes them sound better, clearer and slightly less grainy (less jitter?), even with exactly the same signal path as Wavelab. These apps have options to choose Exclusive Access and Integer Mode. Basically bypassing Core Audio’s SRC, word length, summing and gain modules and pass the 24 bit integer directly from the DAW to the hardware interface.
You can read about it more in this thread on Gearspace:
It is false to say that WaveLab goes through the whole Core Audio layers.
With WaveLab 's CoreAudio support, there is never any type of automatic sample rate conversion. That is, WaveLab will operate with the actual audio device sample rate.
On OSX, the de-facto transfer format between audio software and CoreAudio driver is 32-bit float, which means it has a precision of 24 bits. There is no loss, no conversion, and no process whatsoever happening, as far as you output 24-bit samples or less.
If you play a 32-bit float file and your driver can only handle 24-bit (like 99% of them), then there is of course a sample transformation (that would also be necessary for “hog mode”, of course).
If more than 24-bit precision is required (eg. Steinberg AXR 32-bit DAC/ADC), then WaveLab uses automatically the “Hog mode” (aka exclusive access for a single application to the audio device), to transfer 32-bit integer samples to the driver.
Therefore, in all cases, you can’t get a better audio quality than what WaveLab proposes.
This is the same for all Steinberg applications, and won’t change.
Note: there is an exception if you use an OSX aggregate device because then CoreAudio could do sample rate conversion to sync with another device, if necessary. But I guess you don’t use that.
An OSX aggregate device is a driver around other drivers.
Thanks for the reply Phillipe! Didn´t mean to sound like I´m complaing about the sound quality of Wavelab. Not at all. I use it all day long, and have for years. Love it. Just found the sound of Audionirvana to be somewhat clearer, even with the same chain as WL. It’s just really curious that Audionirvana sounds different, even when using the same chain as WL. Maybe there’s some “enhancement” going on in that App? Strange
I´m glad to read that one can’t do better quality than Wavelab already does.
So basically having Exclusive Acces to the Core Audio in Wavelab would not change a thing sonically?
And you’re correct, I do not use aggregate device.
So if you’re using a true 32-Bit converter like Prism Sound ADA-128 or Steinberg’s own AXR4 32-Bit interface, you can rest assured that all of the 32 bits of the device will be calculated and utilized, correct?
And if that’s correct then, is there anything the user should do for this to happen, or does this happen automatically without the need to change anything?
Is this true for Nuendo and Cubase as well? I read you said it was the same for all Steinberg applications, so it must be true for Nuendo and Cubase as well, correct?
And finally the last question, is the “hog mode” 64-Bit floating point?
Yes. The same Steinberg module is used for all these applications.
The hog mode allows 32 bit PCM if the final driver can, and this accuracy can only be achieved when selecting 64 bit floating point in the application (32 bit float point is limited to 24 bit PCM when lossless conversion needs to be achieved).
It is an interesting discussion. A few people are really, truly convinced that the difference is there, essentially that Core Audio is pretty much always doing some DSP; that it always involves a decrease in sound quality; and that it’s always easily audible.
I don’t own HDX. It’s been a long time since I’ve used HD. I don’t have any other way to get audio out of my current computer without Core Audio. But, I did switch from Windows to Apple in the last year, and I haven’t noticed or been able to demonstrate a difference. But, I also haven’t tried that hard because I master ITB and process the audio between the capture/print point and the DAC anyway.
It would be interesting to get to the bottom of it, no matter whether the conclusion is “these people are doing something wrong” or “they’re falling victim to snake oil”, or “the problem is there, but something like HDX is the only way to get around it”.
Honestly, a lot of the complaints remind me of the people who put some high-end DAC between their computer and their Trinnov and claim it makes all the difference while ignoring the fact that the Trinnov (in their setup) adds another generation of conversion that they apparently can’t hear.
I honestly don’t know what to make of the discussion. Sometimes, it seems like an issue that needs to be addressed. Other times, it sounds a lot like snake oil.
I think I made it clear that the highest possible quality available from the device driver is used. And I will add that WaveLab uses the exact same technology as Cubase and Nuendo in this domain.
While it is a technically very interesting topic, for balance (and as a Windoze user) I make the observation that a great many top 10 records are produced, recorded, mixed and mastered on OSX … and whether a there is or is not a slight degradation in fidelity through CoreAudio is maybe not the most significant factor in that chase for a Grammy.
It is an interesting topic. Steinberg and Apple claim there is nothing to see here. RME also claims this but for some devices like my ADI-2 Pro FS, they also added a “High Precision” version that is selectable in WaveLab which may or may not bypass Core Audio.
It’s a confusing topic but hasn’t stopped me from doing analog playback/captures in MacOS without an HDX system.
It’s not just a few mastering engineers that have noticed this. Without naming specific engineers, all of Sterling and all of BGM have identified this and have stuck to ASIO for both Wavelab and Sequoia. There are many more independent engineers that have also noticed this, but I cannot drag them into this argument publicly.
I personally believe that Core Audio does not sound bad and of course hit records will continue to be made thru it, but I know irrefutably that it changes the source to some degree, be it to the DAW from an ADC or to a DAC from a DAW, and to me that is unacceptable.
I have done hundreds of hours worth of tests, which inevitably led me to buy a PC to use ASIO which is a direct integer based connection between DAW and interface. I could have stayed on a Mac using PT HDX, but I don’t like the mastering workflow in Pro Tools, and have been much happier using Wavelab/Sequoia this last year.
Even some of the best engineers in the world can convince themselves of things that they can’t prove, and it takes a LOT of confidence to say “there is no difference” when people around you are saying they can hear it - the obvious outcome is that a bunch of people say your ears aren’t as good as theirs and then write-off your opinion. I think I fell victim to that in this case.
Mastering can definitely be a game of tiny differences, but that null for different drivers is plenty good enough as far as I’m concerned. @Justin_Perkins, we all respect you and what you do, so maybe you’ll be willing to answer: do you happen to know off the top of your head about how loud the noise from a “normal” analog chain for you is when you print silence through it? My guess is that it’s louder than that.
(I’d post the answer myself except that I work ITB)
I’m no longer convinced that the problems being reported are significant.
