Hairpin behavior

Hello all–
Perhaps someone can unravel the mystery for me, but I always find it very odd that I select a first and final note as anchor points for a hairpin, only to have the hairpin extend to the note beyond the second note I selected. IE- I select the first and last notes in a 4/4 bar expecting the resulting hairpin to be 4 beats long, starting on beat one and ending on beat 4, only to have it actually anchor and end on beat “5” (beat one of the following bar). I do not understand why, when selecting two deliberate notes with a mouse, the final anchor point is the subsequent note.

Is there a way to change this behavior?

I’ve puzzled this, as well. My thought was that if you select that 4th beat, the hairpin has an effect through that pitch; i.e., to beat “5.” Put another way, the hairpin goes all the way through the bar. But I agree - if I select that last pitch, I expect that to be the end point of the hairpin.

That was the best I could surmise as well, however I figure that if that is indeed the case, the playback can reflect that, but the notation should not.

Is the issue that you don’t want to see the hairpin protrude past the barline to the first note of the following bar? If so, you can change an engraving option (on the Dynamics page) to make hairpins stop before barlines by default.

Ah, good to know!

I solved that problem a while ago with Daniel’s method, and I must say this is no longer a problem for me. It might be “hidden” in an advanced setting that you need to make appear. Actually, it is, I just checked.

Well, the issue is more broad than that. Because if I only select say, the first 3 notes, then the hairpin extends to the 4th, etc. The behavior just seems odd to me because what I click on is not what I get. In my mind this is akin to if you selected the first and final notes of a slur only to have the slur one note longer than you selected.

I think the idea behind this behavior is that all notes you select are affected by the dynamics change. I feel it is quite logical, from a musical point of view, even if it seems graphically not logical. I had the same feeling as yours at first, probably because my mind has been corrupted by some legacy engraving app :wink:

Since Dorico behaves consistently in this regard, presumably Romanos401 can now adjust his behavior to get what he wants. No?
I agree that Dorico’s practice, though not consistent with Finale’s, is perfectly logical.

I agree and disagree, and I believe I started a thread about this behavior back in October of last year.

While it makes sense to draw the hairpin further beyond the final value selected (the hairpin should include the final notes value), when I go to select a passage and type ‘p<f’ in the popover, the forte marking is applied to a note that I DID NOT select. The forte is marked on the following note. That part seems counter-intuitive to me, although it is consistent in behavior. Why would a dynamic appear on a note that I did not select? Further more, now I need to do more thinking to achieve what I want. If let’s say the ‘p<f’ lead into a sub. p on the next note, now I have to do a lot more thinking about what is going to occur. Keep in mind, this is not a deal breaker for me. But it does add more steps to the thought process.

When I input dynamics, I still have to stop and think about where this final dynamic change will occur, then back off by 1 note to achieve what I want. I do understand the logic behind it, but I am not 100% sure the logic takes into account the thought process of engravers. When engravers hand-hammered into the plates, where they placed the tool is where the marking would show, not elsewhere. That is how I think. When adding marks I think where do I need to put (insert item), and then I select where that item should go.

The extra step of the process catches me off guard every now and then. And maybe I am not that good or not that smart, I would concede to both accusations.

Robby

Robby,
I must confess I agree with you on those p<f problems… I find it logical if I only input hairpins but confusing when Dorico puts a f or a p on a note I did not select. I guess this is why I do not use this kind of entry in the popover, which is a pity since it could save me some time… I enter my dynamics one by one where I want them to be and eventuality griup themnif I want them aligned. I guess you make a point here.

I agree with Robby. I’m thinking that I’m telling Dorico exactly how long I want the duration to be, then Dorico extends it. While Dorico’s response to input is indeed “consistent” I do not (to my way of thinking anyway) find it “logical”. Robby makes good points.

Yes, I have adjusted my behavior, as suggested above, however this does not always work so well. If I select a final note to a hairpin, to my musical mind, that note marks the fullness of the expression, not that the expression continues (and is finally achieved) one note after it. From a player’s perspective, if I see a hairpin continue under the next note (read: the “extra note”), it seems logical to me that I am supposed to continue the effect while playing that note too. In reality, the effect was achieved through the final note of the hairpin and the result now applies to the notes following the hairpin. If my semantic understanding of this concept is correct, then Dorico is indeed extending hairpins one note too far. Perhaps there is room to agree to disagree about that.