Hiding Cautionary Time Signatures 2022

The issue is in providing the ability to hide cautionaries in a semantic way. The “correct” way to do it is to use a new flow, because the need to hide cautionaries is (almost always) restricted to the breaks between flows—except when it isn’t. Providing a general “hide cautionaries” option fixes this, and I agree there’s the need for that ability, but opens up other cans of worms that aren’t solvable in a semantic way. It would actually make the software less intuitive to use. You want to hide cautionary time signatures? Just break the flow there; you probably actually need that anyway. (Except when you don’t!) Ok, now there’s a “hide cautionary time signatures” option, so you hide them—but now people who are new to the software have input 5 movements of sonata all in the same flow, with hidden cautionaries and measure number changes and all the other cruft, and are wondering why their movement titles aren’t showing up like the ad copy says they will, and then the forum shows them how to fix it which is obnoxious to do because they didn’t follow best practices from the get-go, and then “the last state of that one is worse than the first”. So I fully support the development team’s slowness in regards to supplying this ability, as frustrating as it is in the meantime for those use cases when I need the option, because I’m sure when they get to it they’ll have implemented it in the most organic way.

1 Like

Hi, @Coranglais16 , you are righrt, as long as we are talking of pieces of music.
In the moment were are talking of studies and etudes and othe pedagogical stuff, using different flows generates a lot of other problems: incorrect numbering of flows, you have to manually hide flow headings, because in this context you normally have more than one flow heading on a page.

4 Likes

I wound not mind to use the “correct way” if that way wasn’t introducing other problem, ex: in the same project you can’t allow each flow to display chord diagrams individually.
So if I want to create different exercises with the same chords but different time signature, I have to use the “coda workaround” but then, if you want to go back and modify anything, it’s a nightmare.
Also, if the coda function allow us to hide the time signature, why not to turn it into a proper option?
At least people using one flow to create 5 movements have the opportunity do do it properly if they take the time to read the manual.
But, thank you for your comment.

3 Likes

This problem with stating a “correct” way, is that Dorico’s “correct” way is unacceptable for an entire genre of music, namely etudes, exercises and educational handouts, where the standard accepted practice is to NOT show cautionaries if the piece is following a set pattern. Here’s a page from Hanon for example:

I have dozens of books with similar examples where cautionary key signatures are not used and I regularly create handouts for my students where I don’t want them to show either. My instinct in the above example would be to use a flow for a single exercise pattern as that’s a logical “chunk” of music to me. Instead I have to use a dozen flows for the same exercise as a workaround. If I need to use normal Codas in the same project then setting the gap before a Coda to 0 is problematic as that’s a project-based option, not flow-based.

True, you don’t often need to hide a cautionary for most actual “music” music, so it’s understandable why this feature may not have been included if that’s all that was considered, but it’s pretty essential for etudes, exercises and educational handouts.

(After stating above I wasn’t going to rehash an old thread, I did anyway. Daniel’s probably gonna lock this LOL)

11 Likes

Sometimes it helps to restate something with the perspective of previous discussions. I think the above post makes the point better than I have seen elsewhere.

I for one would not even attempt to use Dorico in its current form for writing exercises, when I have Sibelius on the other computer.

5 Likes

Wait … I just realized the original post was about cautionary TIME signatures and I responded with KEY signatures. Reading comprehension fail, oops. Same principle applies though and the workaround is the same. Even the Hanon example is the same as they restate the time signature.

2 Likes

Here is an example where hiding cautionary time signature would have been useful for me. I’m writing a piece with complex time signatures that appear on top of the bars, as an “analytical tool”. (as if Messiaen would have put time signatures above his non-metrical music). In that situation, showing cautionary time signatures is useless and take too much space. I had to hide them with white rectangles as Graphic frames

3 Likes

Here’s another workaround I just thought of, for hiding cautionary time signatures without the coda.

After the page break, create a bar with open meter, “none” for the time signature. This will leave no cautionary time signature on the previous page. Then you can make that bar however long you wish, put a hidden time signature after it; and then create a fake time signature as described here. (Maybe there is a newer, better way to make fake time signatures? I don’t know.)

HideCautionary.dorico (624.9 KB)

2 Likes

Thanks, I’ll give it a try!

I have a score where basically every page ends with something like this:

Screenshot 2022-03-09 at 13.19.01

The cautionary time signatures are making the entire thing extremely confusing to read, especially also given the repetitions. Not having the option to hide them in a per layout way is a real pain.

4 Likes

Is there still no proper way to hide the cautionary time signature at the specific bar?

1 Like

No, there have been no changes in this regard.

1 Like

Way too much work! A number of users have requested the option to hide cautionary time and key signatures. As long as Dorico recommends itself for educators, it should provide this option, no?

4 Likes

Please???

3 Likes

I also hope the Dorico developers will implement this feature in future versions of Dorico.
I read diverse perspectives on “hiding cautionary time signature” in this thread. However, I want to point out that “Starting a new flow when no cautionary time signature is needed” is appropriated only in some restricted cases and based on a very narrow perspective.

Cautionary signatures include cautionary time signatures, cautionary key signatures and cautionary clefs.

Dorico hides only cautionary clefs correctly when resizing the scale to 1%; resizing a key signature leaves a small empty staff line at the system’s right side; resizing a cautionary time signature hides both the cautionary time signature and its connected time signature, and it also leaves a small empty staff line at the right side of the system where the cautionary time signature is placed.

3 Likes

I’ve experienced the exact same thing, being forced to add white squares to hide these cautionary time signatures. I hope this feature will be implemented soon.

FWIW I just resignedly committed myself to making a new flow to avoid the cautionary, but I think in every case found it a good solution I probably should have done anyhow, so was glad to get pushed into it.

So in that light I think the one feature that would make this better for users is to add a ‘Folder’ type into the Flow structure. Purely organizational, doesn’t need to have any further implications, but if flows could be organized into one more level of a Folder which has no other implications that would make it easier when we have to create a huge list of flows, such as for etudes/exercises and so on.

It’s fair to say that a single scrolling linear list of flows can get hard to understand and manage, especially for exercises where each one probably represents a single line of music.

Edit: this idea is a common compromise in software I’ve seen between the single list approach to a full tree structure, which is to just give a single level. It’s common in note taking applications include Evernote, Synology Note station and OneNote. Maybe Apple notes too,.

3 Likes

Good idea.
(I also think there would be benefit in allowing hierarchy in expression maps - but that’s another topic)

1 Like

Will this ever be considered? If so, is there a timeline for that?
In the meantime, for all the exercises and technical things I need to write and edit, I just avoid Dorico completely. It’s a bummer to have to rely to so many work arounds because Dorico would be just impressively great if we didn’t have to rely on workarounds any time something doesn’t fall within the only intended purpose of being efficient at editing classical, romantic and early modern music for orchestra (which it is, indeed!)

I’m afraid I can’t give you any realistic indication about when any feature that hasn’t already gone a long way towards being implemented and tested might arrive. Suffice to say that we’re very well aware of the strong feeling about this issue among many of our users.

5 Likes