How do film composers deal with large DAW projects for film?

Cubase
21

well if the stuff is simply VSTi’s with no MIDI, the simplest way is with a preset. If it’s themes or recorded audio, you have to either:

  1. use track export/import. Though I’ve explained there are some gotchas using this in its current state (cmon Steinberg :slight_smile:

  2. save presets for all the tracks you want to import which will save their inserts/etc and then open the project you want to import to and make it active without closing the project you are exporting from. Make all the necessary tracks and load corresponding presets and then copy and paste the MIDI/audio from the project you’re copying from making sure “Automation follows events” “Split events” and “Split Controllers” are all turned on.

#1 is the quickest, but potentially problematic way, #2 is the safest but overly time consuming way

22

Another trick for large projects … load video, spend time putting in frame markers for music transition points. Unload the video and work using frames markers as references. When you have made significant progress, reload the video.

23

Yes, quite likely - it’s the first place I’d look. Play 4.1.7 doesn’t play (!) nicely for me in Cubase 7.5, but behaves impeccably in VE Pro. I’d strongly recommend trying the free VE Pro demo, it’s a far, far more efficient host that Cubase generally.

24

Whole movie with multiple cues in one project? Not happening.
Cubase is missing the “chunks” feature from DP with an arrangement master track.

But as a work around it helps using some external VSTi host (VE Pro) for samples so at least no need to reload huge projects with many samples each time.

Too bad Steinberg V-Rack doesn´t exist anymore in a current 64 bit version, something like that should be packaged with Cubase

25

Interesting, I think I will try this but curious What are some of the other advantages? Let’s say if you have 4 cues for one reel, wouldn’t you just load that reel or that revised reel once regardless ? I am assuming you were given reels not the film in one piece…

Tempo changes are a huge problem when locked to video, so if video is not on a host, you score a cue, then decide to change tempo, it moves everything video included on the right side of the change starting point on your project timeline, but if video is in its own host, and cue starts at 01:00:00:23 and you change tempo, then I guess you just slide the midi or audio back to 01:00:00;23 in your sequencer after making the tempo change and the video is unchanged, it doesn’t move at all…right? Thinking this through here…

26

One note on video.

I was using mp4s but realized that mp4s are a very compressed format. I found that using a full rez (1080p) video (with a codec like DNxHD) was much easier on the processor than a compressed file. It does help to stream it off it’s own drive, but Cubase is much more responsive using it rather than an mp4 in the same format. You could use 720p as well. Just something to consider. DNxHD is still compressed, but not nearly as much as an mp4.

Anyway, not here to argue the point, just wanted to mention it. I’m actually a video editor/composer and my work goes straight from my system to national broadcast, so I’ve become pretty familiar with both sides of production.

BTW, I do think Cubase needs something like chunks. I’ve considered using DP. But I find that is really it’s only big advantage.

27

One of the great features in cubase is the ability to set timecode at a certain measure. If you change tempo, everything will shift, but if your main sync point was say, measure 3, you can set the timecode to be what it was before the change at measure 3. If the video is in an external host, it will be exactly where it needs to be. If the video is in Cubase, you have re-align the video.

This is definitely a big plus for hosting outside cubase.

28

Booked

29

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30

Hi!
I compose mainly for TV and Film and my mothership-monster Cubase template with literally almost everything I have has almost 4000 (yes 4k) midi tracks. Those are grouped into sections of instruments Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Percs, FX’s, Sound Design, Voices, Pianos etc. and are hosted by many instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro all on one powerful machine, no slaves. All audio outputs are properly named and routed to proper subgroups, FX channels, main groups and finally to the Stereo or Surround output. This gives me the freedom to export audio tracks as audio stems for further mix in different formats, depending on the clients wishes. Some need stereo, some 5.1 or 7.1 mixes.

The fun part is this - using tracks presets, export selected tracks function, VST instruments rack presets etc. I am able to create smaller versions of my big template for the times where I don’t need everything under my disposal. Sometimes I only write for strings so I load only the string part of the library and go from there. It is much quicker to load but the main logic behind this system/construction the naming and routing stays constant.
It took veeery long time to create this whole system but it pays off in the long run because now it is just a matter of a few clicks and whatever sound I need for a project - it’s there ready to go!

Adding midi controller surfaces, touch sensitive monitor, iPad with Lemur on it and some long hours of programming and mapping Generic Remote functions made composing fun again and not - like it was before - 15% composing and 85% loading, searching, tweaking, troubleshooting, coursing … :wink:
Every bigger project is stored in one project folder for this project only and inside there are folders for Reels, episodes, parts and so on all depending on the nature of a project.

Saving and naming different versions of a session is also very important since often months later I need to re-open particular Cues for whatever reason (another DVD version, Surround Mix, shorter version, version without percussions etc) and I should be able to find myself in the session quick and with no extra pain.
Using notepad, screenshots and backing up stuff saved my butt many times so far and those are the things we don’t really like to do. It is worth the time invested.

Cheers!

31

Most of the film composers I know use a project for each cue. So for a feature film you can have 50-60 projects on average. This is done for several reasons. Each cue can be worked on independently, and each cue is treated as a separate piece of music. To have all the cues or multiple cues in one project would make it difficult for multiple people to work on the movie at the same time. I’m not necessarily talking about writing the music, but someone may need to prep a cue for a music editor, or get something to the mixer, or make a demo, etc. The other issue is putting all your eggs in one basket. If something happens to the session then it affects the entire movie, not just one cue.

Cubase is not at all elegant at importing tracks from project to project, frankly it sucks. Logic and LIVE are actually ok at it, but in cubase you have to export an xml file and then import it and it sometimes shifts your project, so you have to go into the xml file and take out a chunck of it…it’s just a mess. But this is where templates are so important, having as much as possible at your fingertips ready to go. VE Pro helps with that. The “backup project” feature is handy if you want to start a new cue using material from another.

Now I have heard in TV that some composers have started composing each episode in ONE project. This is possible now due to “track versions” for the tempo track. You can call up different tempo maps when playing each cue which is handy. Otherwise the tempo map for an entire movie would be a mess and if you had to change the tempo in a previous cue it would affect later cues also, but now with track versions that is not a concern. But still automation can become an issue.

As for video I used to work with it inside each cue, but it gets messy, so I’ve switched to using a program called “Video Slave” which is awesome!. It runs the video externally, either on the same computer or a different one, using MTC.

32

Are you still around? So I hooked up an older laptop with nuendo 5 to a spare motu 828 , imported a video, and ran motu midi I/O to my main cubase 7 sequencer, turned on Mtc and presto, it locks as a slave and I can see the advantage now as I wrote in some crazy tempo changes on the master and the slave video never lost it place because of the tempo changes in the master sequencer, (I set up markers on master and slave to check this ). This would have Been a disaster if the video was in the master.

However maybe you can help, there is a time difference once I stop the last 3 digits are off ( I think it’s 24 milliseconds ) the slave is behind the master , but, if I switch to FPS view for time , 23.98 then master and slave is a perfect match. No drift. Any idea why time appears to drift but fps is perfect? I know fps is more important but it’s bugging me that I don’t have a perfect time lock.

33

I’ve done about 10 features since I switched to doing everything in a single session, and so far I’ve been happy with that. Of course you have to be really meticulous with the versioning in case something happens to the session, but so far I’ve never had to revert to an older version due to anything Cubase did. A couple of times due to my own screw-ups with global copy/paste operations, yes – you better make sure you’re always locked to a 1/1 grid when doing those. Process Bars is much safer than the selection-based ones, so using that as much as possible is a good idea.

I find the ability to easily copy material from other cues, quicker mixing if doing everything in Cubase, easier batch export with AutoHotkey/AppleScript, getting a bar-correct single session for Pro Tools for recording sessions etc. more than makes up for the slight extra hassle it brings though. But this is definitely something where everyone’s mileage will vary. I would not suggest diving into this without testing it out pretty extensively.

Example session image from a documentary I did http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8520185/tale_of_a_forest_cubase.png

34

:stuck_out_tongue: This post makes me jealous. :stuck_out_tongue:

I think this is the most ideal situation.

But if i am allowed i have some question:

  • how many cores you need for that? 48 ?
  • You use one instance (as indicated as preffered by vienna) or many instances with your own core assignment ?
  • And the output routing - how do you prevent your individual tracks to suffer from getting masked when so many signals are on the same signal path when doing this on a single machine?

kind regards,
R.

35

Hi roel, no need to be jealous!

My system isn’t the newest one (3-4 old) but I’m not gonna change anything if it is working well.

  1. I am using single machine (EVGA-SR 2 mobo) with 2 Intel Xeons on it what gives me 12 cores I believe.
  2. I use one instance of Cubase and many VEPros handling all the Kontakt instances.
  3. building huge templates (or even a smaller ones) takes some time and is almost never finished :wink: I use a lot of subgroups (or simply Group Tracks in Cubase) for exactly that reason - to be able to control what goes where BUT it starts already in Kontakt - every group of instruments (ex. Violin 1) gets their own audio output which again is seen in Cubase as such. In Cubase all mu Violins 1 articulations (from different libraries) are going into Violin 1 Group. Same goes for Violin 2 and Violas those 3 Groups (Vln1-Vln2-Vla) are going into another Group (HI Strings) then again HI Strings Group and LO Strings Group goes into STRINGS Group and this big Group goes to ORCHESTRA Group where also WOODWINDS, BRASS and PERCS meets. There are also other Groups like VOCALS, SOUNDDESIGN, GUITARS, ORCH FXS, KEYBOARDS, SYNTHS…
    Since Groups are basically seen by Cubase almost same as Audio Tracks, they can be treated like such: EQ, VOL, Inserts, Sends and so on.
    In my Mixer window I see only those Groups, all the MIDI tracks are hidden.
    To control all the madness I use my touch surface and Generic Controls A LOT :wink: (picture attached)

I hope this helps a bit!

Cheers!

Cubase_Project.jpg
Cubase_Project.jpg2241×1261 398 KB

36

We set up similar but your set up is a bit crazier than mine. What are you using for the touch surface? It looks similar to something like touchosc but I can’t tell from the picture what is going on exactly on the touch surface.

37

emulator pro was a solution but now isn’t working as it was before, became more DJ soft.

38

@24DBFS:
If i have to vote for coolest, you’ll get mine! :slight_smile:
I love just looking at it and imagine the possibilities. (although the picture is a bit dark) :slight_smile:
I am not into film composing, but such a setup is something i really want to get some day, some time.
But i’ll need a lot of people clapping for me before i will get there. :slight_smile:
But tx for the info.
The question about the masking was just if the final mix was done on the same machine. But i’ll leave that up to my imagination, and i guess you keep it all at a digital level and the mastering is probably done somewhere else.

kind regards,
R.

39

Many thanks for the interesting comments and descriptions on this post.

Stevie G

40

While this is not a video project (at least for now), I think the scenario is similar enough that I might benefit from the conversation.

I’m currently working on a band project with Cubase at FOH. I’m automating lighting via a Vst pluging (Dmxis) and the Cubase project is central to that, backing tracks, sending program changes & CCs to various devices, etc.

I’m currently using one project per set, which tend to be a bit over an hour each. While I don’t have performance problems from video or plugins (I use no real time plugins beyond Dmxis, it’s all rendered audio), I find that working on individual songs and making changes is less than elegant.

I have a digital mixer that shows up as 32 busses in Cubase. The set project has a track for each and I have them grouped by keyboards (piano / organ), synths, orchestral. Naturally, each song uses different instrumentation / tracks.

I use a template for my indivdual songs with the same track layout as the project which holds the sets, and do the work on the song in its dedicated project. Then, I have to copy and paste the entire thing, including time sigs, tempo changes, midi tracks, audio, etc. to the marker in the set project where it lives in context of the show. Of course, if I need a new track, I have to have that in all my projects or the copy & paste doesn’t automatically line up vertically, which would create a lot of work.

I suppose I could do the native work in the set project, but if I decide to move a song from set 1 to set 3, it’s back to copy & paste anyway, so individual song projects seem to make sense.

As you might imagine, this is a bit of a fussy process. Hearing people talk about multiple cues in a movie sounded very similar to my scenario. What I have in place now gets the job done, but I would welcome any suggestions from those working on larger projects like this, video or otherwise, that would make for a smoother (and less error prone) workflow.