How do I 'recall' sounds from an external module?

Steinberg Lounge
21

Yes, you can go in and name your presets and when you choose one in the MIDI Track Inspector it will show the name there. The MIDI Device editor is a bit quirky at times.

About the # alignment, this is common on various devices. Some start at 0 (which is very “MIDI”) but others start at 1 (which is more human) and throws things off.

You can also just use “Define New…” when clicking Install device, this is “from scratch”.

I haven’t created devices in a long time, since I haven’t bought any equipment that I need to change programs for. I have used a Roland V-Synth for a few of years, that is brilliant for manipulating samples. But I don’t really use the Programs on it other than recording and saving them on flash memory (in case I need to do it over).

In contrast, I have a KORG Z1 that I have used for many years and there are some sounds on it that I use when composing and so it’s very convenient to select a sound (by name) from a list instead of trying to remember the number, even though by now I do know the numbers. :smiley: I only use these sounds until I have a basic song arrangement and I then create actual sounds on whatever engine that match what I really was aiming for.

The reason I do this is because some sounds seem to make it easier (for me) to build the song structure, without being sound biased. I mean I love cool sounds but they tend to distract from the task at hand. :slight_smile: So when I have the basic schematic for the song, THEN I can have fun with whatever sounds I think will work.

22

Site with a ton of Cubase patch scripts

http://cubase.rivetedstudios.com/cat_view/34-cubase-files/35-patch-scripts.html?start=125

23

Excellent, thanks for that, been reading this topic with some interest, I have some old Roland items which nobody will buy anymore, so I’m gonna try some of these scripts out sometime with them! With so many tracks available and thousands of plugins, I have been too lazy to use the old outboard synths… this could breath some life back into them.

:sunglasses:

24

I have never tried that to be honest, no idea how VSTi’s respond to incoming patch changes. I’m guessing it might work for some. Make sure to untick the Sysex filter in preferences though, I think that’s on by default.

25

Assuming you are using MIDI Program Change Events to change the programs on the second computer… a PC is a MIDI Event just like a Note On or Pitch Bend, etc. So as long as the PC Event is “recorded” at say at the third bar/measure, it will then send the PC, when playing the sequence, at the 3rd bar/measure.

26

I cannot answer that, sorry. With VSTi, I just create a new track for a different sound (getting lazy with age :wink: ).

One would think that at least a few plugins would respond to MIDI messages like PC and Bankies.

27

There are so many schemes to how “banks” and programs are implemented in plugins, this may prove to be a difficult nut to crack. Each plugin implements their own patch management system, which likely or not probably have little connection to the MIDI standard. Though I happily wish to be proven wrong. (Different companies, different minds, different implementations, I am sure.)

Anyways, on your endeavors into this, shall we call it unchartered area, please share your insights and findings, I am keen to learn and keeping up a discussion on the subject might change things. :slight_smile:

28

So here is an example of a PITA device for creating a MIDI Device in the Cubase MIDI DM. (At least in terms of the editor and how it works.)

I have an old Roland D-50 which I love, but since we had talked about the program/patch stuff a while back, I remembered an old Roland VariOS (from many years back) that I use with a Vocal Card (VC-2, this card works in a V-Synth as well). But I also have a D-50 card (VC-1) that have four additional banks of patches, which I don’t mind using if I need some inspiration.

I endeavored then to setup a device for the VariOS with a VC-1 card. The manual details the Banks and Program Changes needed to control it.

The Bank Select MSB is always 87 (hmmm…).
8 internal banks (Bank Select LSB = 0 to 7)
6 preset banks (Bank Select LSB 8 to 13)
64 patches (PC 0 to 63) in each bank.

So for each patch I am selecting, it needs to send three values, the MSB (always 87), a LSB (0-13, the bank number) and a PC (0-63, the patch number within the bank). This is very easy to setup in Cubase.

The PITA part is like what you described, in that each patch display does not read 0 - 63 for the patch. In this case the number goes 11-18, 21-28 … 71-78, 81-88 (eight groups of 1-8, like a grid which they use to reference the system in the manual). Maybe sometime I’ll to enter all program names and post the device, but for now I simply changed the numbers to appropriately correspond to the display panel numbering system (above).

E.g. when I select (and see) “P2 - 11” in Cubase, it changes to (and shows) “P2-11 / Brass Tacks” on the VariOS.

I skipped the “internal” banks since first, I am not about to edit patches using a one knob with click and two button screen cursor control interface system, and secondly, I got a real D-50 with a “programmer”.

Anyways, hopefully this will give you a picture of how it could end up working. I.e. not always straight forward.

29

Well, this has gotten to be one of my most studied forum reads. Steve, never understood midi in fact gave up on it 25 years ago when I had bought my first step into modern music technologies…the Yamaha DX7 II. Followed closely by the Roland TR505 drum machine and MT 32 sound module. Made a few sounds and noises and they sat on the basement shelves until a week ago. Sold the Dx7 months later since it was a lot of money in 1982???

This has generated much information for me and to those contributing volumes of information, ( even though it is still above my head) thanks. I am , as a result, plowing thru and getting some positive signs of forward movement. Cubase alone is a struggle but I am determined to see results and as said…it is SLOWLY working

Are you saying that to have Cubase see your midi device for what it is I need to load a new midi device into it manually , or as a script? Thanks

30

Just go into the Cubase device manager and click “add midi device” Fortunately for you Cubase still has a script for the MT 32. Just add that and close. Go to the Project window, add a midi track (don’t waste time with instrument tracks) and in the output select the MT 32 you just added. You can play the sounds from an external keyboard. You will soon see that time has passed this device by and you’d be better off using the Halion Sonic SE that comes with Cubase if possible. The good thing about the MT 32 is that ,as an external module, it uses no cpu resources and ,as I recall. its at least 4 part multi timbral with 32 note polyphony. That brings back memories

31

Thanks Mr. M.

I know the MT 32 is a dinosaur but back in the 80s is was up and coming. The thing is that …it is here and basically new…lets see if it can work. I know the sounds it has are so primitive compared to the samples employed today …just wait until that TR505 starts pumping out some 1980s drum patterns, I know …you’re all gonna want one.

My hope is that without spending more money, I can get the right methods down in getting a functioning midi plan together with a better understanding of its physical connections and adaptation to the pc. Once that has a secure place in my brain, moving into more relevant source will be a better move towards a goal

That was a stage in my life where we were playing in what is now known as classic rock…gear was cheaper and we had several options to start jumping on to the new midi and effects bandwagon. Things slowed, mortgages and family grew and all of that had to take a back seat. The equipment was moved into the new house and just stayed there. I have a 1967 Fender Princeton Reverb I’m afraid to plug in, it’s been unplugged for 33 years. I’d hate to fry it now. So, 30 years later, I’m back. I only hope I have enough time to get the most out of it…I feel like I have still so much more to do. It’s 11:11 pm and I’m on my way down to the studio to fire it all up again, just really want to try the way Mr. M says.

32

Well I am certainly re-energized and being older with kids grown and almost 3 minutes more spare time nowadays, I can dedicate more to I developing much more familiarity with this. I was pretty good with the GR 33 until i stopped playing it for a year or two. Now I look back on the floor knowing I forgot more than I had learned…same thing with midi.

I am sure I remember addressing midi channels 1-16 and sending data to different modules but that was such a long time ago. The explanation in those old manuals described it like a TV set receiving different programming on different channels. Wow, was that a few years back!

I must confess one thing… As a newbie to Cubase …9 years ago, plus new to the Internet , it was a little intimidating to ask a few questions on the old blue forum. Some of the answers were like “. Read the manual”. To me the manual needed a manual.

The guys around here that I have come to read a lot, have been great in their guidance to others and subsequently, me too. I really appreciate that as it is what motivates and makes progress.

I may look into adding another module to my keyboard, the MT 32 has some very primitive sounds and a few reasonable ones .
The jazz quartet I play with on occasion has a pianist who knows less about midi than me so his guidance is useless :wink:

33

Machine gun? You got it. :laughing: I have those sounds on the TR 505 drum machine. I have read about the two computers that you are using. I enjoy knowing that the options are there and get even more by seeing these experiments work. Certainly may not be the most advanced systems in recording technology . My newest dilemma is how to start plugging in from one midi device to another besides daisy chaining them. I am using a M-audio midisport 2x2 and there are two in and two out. I am wondering if a more advanced interface would give better midi connection options. I am still experimenting several steps behind you but, when it actually works…like Cubase sees it or it makes sounds…wow that is a warm and fuzzy feeling . At least for and older guy who never had it working before

34

For the uninitiated, beginner or just as a refresher for some. MIDI is basically nothing more than a musical activity communicator (hence the acronym :wink: ). Simple messages like “Note On”, “Note Off” and the position of the Modulation Wheel (this is one of the Continuous Controller or CC message) for example.

Elementary performance events are really the only thing suited to be transmitted over MIDI. You press a key on a MIDI keyboard and a Note On message is sent over the cable. When you let go of the key a Note Off message is sent. As long as you keep moving the Modulation Wheel, CC messages are continually sent. The same type of thing happens for Pitch Bend for example, and Volume, Balance, Pan, etc.

A Program Change (or PC) message is just another thing pushed across the wire, you select a patch on a MIDI keyboard and a MIDI PC message is transmitted. This message can be recorded on the other end of the MIDI cable and can later be replayed to the originating device and the patch number is recalled.

Keep in mind that if the original patch (e.g. #8) has been changed after the event was recorded, the keyboard will recall the newly saved patch when the PC message is received. The reason why the “old” patch is not recalled, is because the message only says “recall patch location #8”. The sound parameters for patch #8 are maintained and contained within the synthesizer itself.

There is a special message called “System Exclusive” (or SysEx) that can be used to transmit (among other data) the entire structure of (the sound parameters making up) the actual patch over a MIDI cable. There was a big push for this in earlier versions of Cubase. MIDI is a bit slow for this type of program recall if you have many devices and if programs on your devices consist of many parameters. It works, certainly, and it does “re-program” the actual patch itself rather than just recalling patch location #8, as in the example above.

Using SysEx messages in this way, for the purpose of sending actual sound structures, does not work for all devices.

35

Elektrobolt, Great explanation to add to my list on midi . It boils down much of the technical “stuff” in those old manuals that felt they need to provide the nuts and bolts of the process to an engineer and not a musician, but that was 1985 so I picked up those pages again where I had gotten so confused years ago.

I was looking at a more advanced midi interface but I am toying with the idea of upgrading my GR33 to the 55 OR trying out the Fishman Triple Play or even swapping my computer CPU and motherboard. As a guitar player…a computer user , I get more from those changes daily, than adding a midi component. I daydream about what direction to take After all, Each few hundred dollars adds up and the midi stuff I have now has literally sat in my studio room for years unused while, the guitars and computer get to do something every day. The midi equipment while being re-discovered is currently a new learning experience. Should it zoom into my daily life in a bigger way, that can only add to the indecision and will then create a different priority…which it actually is doing since I am getting some success in my attempts

36

Steve,

I hate dental work …it just plain sucks and what’s worse is that it costs a fortune. I typically delay all of it until it hurts like hell. I got very lucky with my dentist, he allows me to send him bits and pieces when the fees get crazy.

My GR33 has always been entertaining but I have not yet tried the midi out into the daw and look at any results. I’ve played it by mic thru the amp and triggered by a Godin synth access guitar and a Brian Moore iGuitar. Both work very well and make tracking easy without many playing modifications to accommodate its quirks. I am anxious to see how it reacts as a module since you have discovered this situation. Probably get to do that Sunday and see what the outcome is

To go one step further, since just getting an ounce of midi knowledge in the last week … I have had this Fender Cyber-twin amp over 8 years…JUST discovered midi in, out and thru on the back of the amp !! Un-believable Never needed it , never used it …looks like manual time again

Couldn’t agree more regarding quality vs quantity. I use a Casio Privia ??? X400 keyboard which has a weighted keyboard like a real piano feel. To me it replicates something Like I had been banging on since high school so that’s 40 + years of familiarity. The DX 7 was nice but too expensive at the time to keep something so far above my needs then. Next trying to determine if the Roland MT32 will output audio or I need to run it thru a separate amp

37

Hey Steve, thanks for the information. All of the crap I see on YouTube , I never thought to go look there. That tutorial is over 3 1/2 hours long! I was hoping to dig into the GR and come up with some new discoveries. I was in the garage re-organizing junk for the 99th time and when I was tightening an air line pressure regulator,my wrist popped and it is so freakin sore, I am sure it is not broken but it feels like I’d whacked it with a pipe and getting stiff.

There goes my Gr33 day.

I also want to say thanks again for the great discussions. I have a whole new vision and direction on this stuff and of course, this will make it even more enjoyable. Looking forward to more …Al

38

Gee Steve,

MIDI related injuries?..I saw a TV add for that earlier…Call MIDI Law :laughing: You understand the situation well. Not my first rodeo either and I have that same Wal-Mart cane. At 59 it does annoy me that now I can steal a little more opportunity to play the instruments and have a little chance at recording alone, but things can change fast. It’s 24 hours later …swollen and stiff but my hand works well. Just can’t really use the left hand for stringed instruments

My big “gigs” nowadays is with a few local guys who are big jazz players, I was always a rock player until about 15 years ago when I started really digging into it, my other music is bluegrass. I know it is a big contrast but I got into playing banjo and some fiddle (Homespun Tapes) about 30 years ago and it stuck. The beauty of that is I can sit here in the basement and record 6 or 8 parts with guitar, banjo, mandolin, used the keyboard for a simple bass and layer it into some nice little set of runs. Eventually it builds into a backing track for a guitar lead I can throw in at will.

That MT-32 tutorial really goes thru a lot …I swept thru it yesterday scanning bits and pieces… I will watch it all…but it has got to be over several nights with one eye on the screen and another chatting thru a TV show with my wife as the “spotlight”. Don’t ask but it works :slight_smile: … ( most of the time)

39

Steve, found a few things regarding th e GR33. I had planned to spend a few hours with it Sunday but the wrist is very swollen from that pop. I tried several connections to the GR and played a few previously recorded midi tracks thru the device. I started seeing waveforms show up on the screen from routing the output into the MOTU interface.

Would not produce anything back though when played back. Now I am no wizard on getting the setup right in Cubase so it is very realistic it’s just me.

However on page 93 of the GR33 manual ( 2nd time I’ve looked at it in 6 years ) I did find this

5) If you wish to use he GR 33’s sound generator in the song , also connect midi thru on the external sound generator to the midi in on the GR33. This makes it possible to use the GR33 sound generator as well while listening to the performance of the external midi sound generator parts

Lots of stuff in that manual…I really should read it. If I get anywhere, I’ll post it and let you know

40

All right…so when are you coming over ?

Holy Cow! The one thing I did know was that the channels need to be set accordingly…all of that local filtering “stuff” is something I will be reading thru tonight.

I will assume that I am on channel 1 but you know at ASS_U_ME thing already …so. One of my biggest problems lately has been reading a technical manual and RETAINING the information an hour later when I am downstairs with the cables in my hand or the screens up and ready. I am sure this will resolve eventually.

As for the channel assignments, the one thing I do remember from 25 years ago is that like the TV Set, devices will receive these channels based on the tuner selection you wish to view. Remember those days…turning the dial?

Thanks for the spoon feeding Steve, I’ll keep you informed on any progress.

Also, it appears that the MT32 sound module I have is the first unrevised model…and MOST of the YouTube stuff shows them being used as a game sound devices. Even the 3 1/2 hour guy is mostly discussing gaming. I like the fact that outboard modules reduce the computer load. I have been very lucky with my C7 installation. I’m not sure what “HEAVILY LOADED” with VSTi’s really means in terms of the guys having the issues we read about here, but I have had a fairly good track load with different instruments and drum parts and (knock wood because you know this will jinx it) things run very well. BY comparison, I really could be running very little. I keep trying to stress the system more but run out of imagination before running out of CPU so far

Got my homework for tonight