How do I switch Samples in the middle of a piece

[tfbsaxman]

I have a trumpet part that switch from Mute to natural and I’m trying to get the playback to reflect this.

In finale I could just make an invisible expression that switch to a new patch or channel for the sample I wanted. and then at the point in the music it switch and I could make another one to switch back to unmuted when I was done.

I also like to do things like this to work around sample limitation like Alto Flute which just uses the flute sample but that does not have the range of the alto flute so it just does not play those notes.

How is this sort of thing down in Dorico so play back creates the right sound when needed.

Thanks,

Michael

[Janus]

@tfbsaxman

I have a trumpet part that switch from Mute to natural and I’m trying to get the playback to reflect this.

In Dorico you notate a playing technique (eg. mute) and use a suitable expression map that triggers your chosen VST instrument to switch patch. (The factory playback templates set everything up to do this for you using the default sound libraries).

@tfbsaxman

I also like to do things like this to work around sample limitation like Alto Flute

This is more complex, because each sound library has range limits on instruments. You can use the Halion Sonic Selection patches, but the quality will be lower.

[tfbsaxman]

So If I go with the default of instrument creation in Dorico Pro and have the Halion Sonic VST instruments that come with it. And I use playing techniques Cup Mute, the sample does not Change. If I use just mute expression, the sample does not change.

Same thing with Horn for + (Stop) or ◌ (Open) sample does not switch.Thus why I’m looking for a workaround.

So the most important thing when writting music is for the tool to produce a sound for every note so you can check your work or the conductor and performers can hear the example. Lower quality is not really important. So that why I’m trying to be able to switch for only certain sections or notes to work around the sample deficiencies. It is much better to only switch where required, then having to just switch the whole thing to the lower quality.

So how would I go about doing this.

[Janus]

Whether specific techniques will playback correctly depends entirely on the capabilities of the sound library you use.

[tfbsaxman]

Yeah I’m using the one that ships with Dorico Pro 6 and again why I’m looking for the answer to the question how do I switch to a different patch at various points in the music. This was very simple to do in Finale and I heard people say it is possible in Dorico but I can’t figure out how.

[TonH]

A possible way maybe could be independent voice playback

Enabling independent voice playback - Dorico Pro - 6.1

[Janus]

@tfbsaxman

how do I switch to a different patch at various points in the music

You apply a playing technique.
(we can go round this loop as often as you like. If the patch does not have the capability to reproduce that technique you will hear no change)

[Derrek]

@tfbsaxman

You asked two questions:

1. How do I apply a mute?
2. How do I extend the range?

To apply the mute, you would use two independent voices (on one staff) or you would use a playing technique to generate a playback technique to switch the sound (if your sound set can give you both a muted and unmuted sound.

To extend the range, you would use a sound set (like HALion Sonic or another VST) that has a larger range. But Sonic may have an extended range but not a muted sound.

The techniques that address your two questions are different, but in both cases, the sound set you use must possess the sound(s) you need.

[tfbsaxman]

I asked on question with two examples of use.

how do I switch to a different patch at various points in the music?

[tfbsaxman]

You don’t seem to be understanding the question at all.

So at measure 1 I have in channel 12 a Trumpet patch (no idea the number as the interface does not display it like in finale)

At measure 2 I want to have channel 12 switch to patch [GM 060] Muted Trumpet

then at measure 3 I want to have channel 12 go back to patch Trumpet

This was very easy to do in Finale, is there a way to do this in Dorico?

If that is not possible is it possible to have it swtich to a different Channel at measure 2 then switch back to channel 12 on measure 3

[Derrek]

Janus understands perfectly.

@Janus

You apply a playing technique.
(we can go round this loop as often as you like. If the patch does not have the capability to reproduce that technique you will hear no change)

Playing techniques - Dorico Pro - 6.1

[tfbsaxman]

I’m trying to work around the fact Dorico pro does not supply patches that can do this playing techniques by switching as needed to to other patches.

I’m guess what you are saying is Dorico can’t switch patches like a normal Midi DAW and Finale at various point in time.

[asherber]

It’s true that Dorico handles playback through VSTs, not via MIDI. I believe it’s also true that Dorico’s factory sounds don’t include muted brass that respond in the normal way.

As @TonH suggests, I think you could get what you want with independent voice playback. Input your unmuted notes into voice 1 and your muted notes into voice 2. Then connect the first trumpet voice to a regular trumpet sound, and connect the second trumpet to a muted trumpet sound.

Alternatively, if you have a VST which includes proper muted brass, then all you need to do is apply the muted or con sord. playing technique, and the rest is handled for you.

Many users like NotePerformer for its ease of use and its expressiveness, and because it uses a combination of sampling and synthesis it doesn’t have the same range restrictions that straight samples have.

Here’s a small project that demonstrates using Independent Voice Playback wired up to different samples.

Independent Voice Playback.dorico (602.3 KB)

[Brian_Roland]

Many ways, here is an example using Sonic 7 with the base Sonic Selections instrument library.

The first thing I’ll need to do is use the Play Tab to isolate the stave to use its own unique instance of Sonic 7.

Making a Fresh Sonic Instance

In the Play Tab, I select VST and MIDI, and create a new instance of Sonic 7.

Find the Sonic plugin under Steinberg/Synth/HALion Sonic

If the Sonic 7 UI doesn’t open automatically, you can click here to open it.

Next, I need to assign the staff to use this special new Instance of Sonic.

Assigning a Stave to an Instrument/Channel

In the Play/Track Inspector Tabs, change to the new HALion Sonic instance.

If it doesn’t automatically do so, assign it to Port: 1, Channel 1.

Next I will load all of the trumpet articulations or variations I’d like to use in the score into different slots in Sonic.

Sonic 7 Setup

Next, I need to click the Play/Track Inspector tab and set up a custom expression map for the stave. In this case I’ll begin by simply cloning a copy of the “CC11 Dynamics” map.

Making an Expression Map

Click here to open a window for Expression Maps:

I wish to use CC11 Style dynamics for the Trumpet, as it tends to be a better option in Sonic for wind and bowed string instruments (Anything with constant gradual dynamic changes). So, I will click to select “CC11 Dynamics”, then click the clone button near the bottom of that same pane.

I’ll go to the new copy the map and rename it to something I’ll be able to find easily later.

Next, I’ll assign the Natural base switch to use Absolute Channel 1.

Then I’ll create a new muted base switch that is assigned to use channel 2.

When done making this map I will click OK at the bottom right of the Expression Maps window. It will close. Now I need to choose my new map in the Track Inspector for the Trumpet Track/Stave.

At this point I can enter the Playing Technique “Mute” in the score. It should keep using the muted trumpet channel until I enter a Natural technique to undo it.

Playing Techniques applied in Write Tab

MuteTrumpetDemo.dorico (1.9 MB)

Note, there are ways to clean up the mixing console and even make all of the trumpet sounds in the new Sonic instance come out of a single stereo mix if desired. I’m out of time at the moment, so feel free to ask if it matters to you, and you can’t figure that bit out and need some help.

Also note, there are other ways to do this. Sonic has a special General MIDI mode that will accept Program Change events, and one can custom assign instruments inside HALion to respond to the calls. I think just using the channel bouncing mode described here is the simplest and most straightforward method.

Yes, there are ways to save your instrument endpoints and reuse them in future projects. You can even make it part of your automatic playback template. Sadly I’m out of time and can’t go into those details tonight with a full tutorial.

The gist of it is:
Playing techniques are made in Write mode (Many are already set up, and if you have Dorico Pro, you can make your own ‘custom’ ones, both sticky type for instructions like Con/Senza Sordo, and those that only apply for individual notes, more like individual articulations). They can refer to ‘base switches’ for the playback engine which are part of expression maps (Again, many are already there, and you can make custom ones with Dorico Pro). Expression maps can be used to control instrument plugins.

[Brian_Roland]

With Sonic, and the instruments that come with all versions of Dorico, you can use this ‘channel bouncing’ technique to handle up to 16 different variations or articulations on a single stave with relative ease.

I recommend studying up on Sonic itself. It’s a very powerful instrument that has a lot of potential to sound quite nice. Check out this thread for more on the topic. In a couple of posts I first demonstrate getting basic bounces for a Violin section (arco, pizzicato, tremolo). In another post I demonstrate some techniques to layer up sounds in Sonic, apply some effects internally, and get a bigger sound.

Playback not playing pizzicato

I’m not sure what all support SE and Elements has for manipulating Expression Maps. Assuming you can, there are some rudimentary sounds for pizzicato and tremolo string sections included in the Sonic Selection library that ships with all Steinberg Hosts (Including Dorico SE and Elements). See if you can make this work… (If not, follow up with a post, I might can build a kind of template for you that would work with Elements that’d give you proper string sections with tremolo and pizzicato). M…

[YourMusic.Pro]

May I also suggest looking into MIDI trigger regions?

Although there must be a reason why the very knowledgeable people in this thread haven’t suggested this yet, I wonder?

Anyway, those are specifically provided to fire a single MIDI message at any given point in the score.

EDIT: I seem to remember now that MTRs can only send MIDI notes with a specific velocity. So if you’re using a trumpet patch with the ability to change to mute using a keyswitch, you can get around having to make a playing technique. PTs are of course much more powerful and flexible, so I’d suggest you also start looking into those!

B.

[tfbsaxman]

Thank you Brian this seems to the kind of information I’m after. I appreciate your time on this and will got over it all today. Thank you for your answer.

[tfbsaxman]

Thanks for the example I’m sure this will help but VSTs still read midi data no? They are just sound libraries. Yeah Dorico is not using “Midi sounds” but it still all controlled with midi data. Unless something has changed during the 40 years I’ve been working with midi I don’t know about. But my question is really on how to be able to send midi data program change at particular times. I do appreciate your effort in making an example to clarify a feature I don’t understand. Thanks.

[tfbsaxman]

Yeah Midi program change Trigger is what I was looking to learn how to do and setup. Can you tell me or point me to where I can learn about this feature in Dorico.

[Brian_Roland]

You can have an expression map send CC, PC, and note events. It can also handle absolute or relative MIDI Channel bounces.

The base switches of expression maps are triggered via playing techniques in the score. Note that there are also an assortment of ‘articulation marks’ that can trigger base switches in an expression map if present. Examples are slurs/legato, staccato markings, up/down bows, accents, house tops, falls, doits, and more.

To find out what these are, check out the “Playing Techniques” status bar in the lower panel of the Play Tab. Typically articulations and such will first go through Dorico’s interpretation system and do simple things like add velocity/cc, change the length of notes, etc. If you assign a base switch in an expression map for the technique, it will ignore the default interpretive engine, and use your expression map’s interpretation instead. Note, it’s also possible to make expression map entries that don’t send any extra events at all, but rather override whatever Dorico’s default interpretive engine is set for (I.E. Add velocity to accents only to notes shorter than 1/16 of a beat and make them a little longer.)

Screenshot Showing Dorico’s Play Tab/Lower Pane

Of course the instrument needs to understand them.

Dorico also offers controller lanes in the Play tab that can be used to send CC events. I don’t think it supports PC events at this time.

HALion Sonic does provide two different modes that can accept program changes, but these are not active by default when Dorico starts instances automatically.

Sonic Modes

GM Mode: When in GM mode, all channels but 10 will respond to PC changes, and Sonic ships by default with a base GM set of instruments mapped out. You can change them in the media browser by assigning a program number (GM Sound Column) and rating with stars. I.E. If you have 6 pianos tagged as GM Sound 1, the one with the highest rating (most stars) gets picked. Channel 10 gets hard set to the highest rated HALion program with the GM Sound number 129.

Remember that Yamaha and Steinberg likes to number instruments from 1 - 128 rather than 0 - 127 in their manuals and databases. In Dorico expression maps, you should subtract 1 from what is listed in Sonic or full HALion from the displayed GM Sound (PC) number, as Dorico’s expression maps expect values from 0 - 127 instead.

Showing the Assigned GM Sound (PC) assignments in Sonic’s Media Bay

I recommend popping the media bay window so it is stand alone by clicking here:

Now that you have a nice big area to display the media browser, you can activate the column that shows GM PC assignments and manipulate them.

Click the settings cog here, and activate the column so display GM Sound assignments. You might have to do a horizontal scroll to see it.

You can drag columns in media bay to show in the order you like. I.E. Here, I’ve dragged it to the 3rd column so it’s easy to see. I can double click a GM Sound field in the table and type in changes (1-128, Subtract one when entering calls into an Expression Map, which does 0-127 instead of 1-128).

Multi Mode: In Multi Mode, the user can manage a template of multi-program presets, and thus call up complete plugin states via PC events.

Sidenote: When doing custom configurations of HALion/Sonic, do it in a fresh unique instance. The reason for this is if you mess with one of the instances automatically created via Dorico auto template, adding a new instrument/stave/player/section to a score (Setup Tab) might overwrite your custom slots. It just remembers the last instance and slot it set up automatically; hence, adding new staves will simply fill the next available slot in the last Sonic instance Dorico set up (or start a new one once the count hits 16), and might take over what you’d tried to set up. Starting a fresh instance avoids this.

Remember to save your custom Sonic stuff in sonic, or as a general VSTpreset at the very top of your plugin’s UI/window. Of course you can save individual program slots, or complete muli-program (complete state of a Sonic Plugin) presets in Sonic itself. You can also save the complete state of ANY VST/VSTi plugin through Dorico itself.

Saving/loading a Complete VSTpreset from Dorico

Notice that this is available for third party plugins too! In this example I have an instance of Bidule, which is hosting Garritan JABB3 instruments, and Dorico allows me to save/load snapshots/VSTpresets of the Bidule instance’s full state just as I could with HALion Sonic.

So, for custom endpoints involving HALion/Sonic…make fresh new instances!

Instrument End Points: You can save your stave endpoints for future use. You can add them to custom playback templates if you want them automatically chosen by Dorico from then forward. You can also manage multiple playback templates, mix and match them, and set priorities on them.

Don’t forget that Sonic, and Dorico both allow you to save VSTpresets of your custom plugin instances. You can also export/import your custom expression maps.