How important is to have studio speakers for music production at home?

Steinberg Lounge
61

I am unfamiliar with this style of music and how it is typically mixed etc.

You would get more constructive feedback from people who are familiar with producing and mixing this style of music. Also doing your own research into the genre to learn as much as possible.

However, subjectively to me it sounds good overall.

Some issues that I can hear:

(1) There is a high level noise floor coming from somewhere
(2) I can hear some crackles / pops throughout
(3) According to the spectrum analyzer there seems to be some kind of issue with the low end around 25Hz and below, unless this is intentional.

Otherwise I think you did a good job.

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62

I’ll agree there, but I’m trying to steer the OP away from imperfect conditions, educate his ears, and ensure his hard work translates on systems other than his own.

63

Yes I understand and I agree with you, but having a perfect linear frequency setup is basically unrealistic.

There are non-linearities in the speakers, non-linearities in the room acoustics, non-linearities in the ear canal.

This is why people say getting to know your equipment and building up a understanding on how it translates across various systems is one of the most important aspects.

I simply started a headphone suggestion discussion after taking into consideration the OPs circumstancial limitations and difficulties.

I don’t have acoustic treatment in my room either and my speakers sounds pretty damn awful as a result, I spend most of my time using headphones.

It’s upto the OP whether he wants to buy speakers or headphones.

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Hi @wavefunktion ,

I just noticed that your SoundID preset is set to “No Latency”. You are most probably aware of phase issues caused by SoundID and I assume that this is your setting for tracking.

In case you don’t know: Maybe try “Mixed” and “Linear Phase” and compare all three of them. Here, it’s a huge difference. I rather track without SoundID and use linear when I mix (although I don’t necessarily have to, the adjustements are really subtle on my monitors).

When it comes to headphone presets, I noticed that they do a good job with my old AKG studio horses but they completly mess up my Austrian Audio headphones. The latter sound way better without correction and are pretty much in the ballpark of my main monitors as is. Maybe you don’t need SoundID at all and another plugin with linear phase EQ (bass!) might do a better job given that these are relativly small adjustments?

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You have a good eye. This is jut my desktop application setting for general purpose. It’s not the VST inside of the DAW.

I also found that blindly turning the Sonarworks wet mix upto 100% (supposedly flat / neutral) also made my Sennheiser HD600s sound bad and uninspiring.

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Basically mate, this kind of setup is utter junk. Everything interferes with everything else. The speakers are too close and wildly angled, effectively making the naturally linear pan-curve more logarithmic, which makes it uncontrollable. They would need 140-degree dispersal. No speaker has that anyway. Each ear only hears it’s own speaker, so the imaging is a crapshoot. Hole in the middle syndrome probably very evident - mitigated slightly by the wild angle. The screen seems to be the main component here, the rest an afterthought. Junk setup - bought by someone who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing. Built by someone who will never use it, or anything else, in the mode of quantifiable, accurate audio reproduction.

If you want to build something like this, then best you get someone else to help you, as totally nearfield desktop studios really don’t make sonic sense now that flat-screen monitors have grown so much - although I would recommend a pair of passive Tannoy NFM8 mk2, or i8’s as I bow out. If you really want to do orchestral film scores though, then Tannoy System 12 DMT’s with a Bryston 4BSST should be on your radar, although a big pair of active late-90’s Genelecs would take you a step in the right direction. For truly flat, a pair of JBL L100 Century with Gravesen x-overs. You certainly aren’t fine-tuning a French horn by ear on some Adam junk, or a pair of Reveals.

Everyone will probably say that I’m wrong, they’ve been doing this for years, headphones are great for mixing, never had complaints, all the usual rubbish. But the whole initial premise of nearfield desktop was a joke, unless in some tiny pre-production suite, making sugary multi-preset backing tracks for Kylie or Madonna wannabees. It just became the norm - how, I don’t know? Now it’s grown to be the home-recording industry standard. Honestly, throw a computer near a pair of speakers, and people seem to accept the most crappiest rubbish, and it’s truly getting worse as the screens get bigger. Take the rising popularity of a junk firm like Nectar, for instance. How?

Btw, I dress like her to lounge around and watch TV at home. But then I am a star of course.

67

@Solar

No one is saying you’re wrong, it’s just apparent that you take a setup much more seriously than others.

We can talk about technicals and experiences all day if that’s what the OP wants.

You make a bunch of good points about the picture, but even with all of that said I have heard some of her music and it sounds decent to me.

All i’m saying is that there’s a level of subjective amongst the objective with this topic. I am not here to argue with you.

It sounds like you have a lot of experience with different speakers, that’s cool.

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I’ll tell you one thing - you seriously ain’t tracking no vocals on a U47, wearing a creaking leather catsuit!! I would advise her to strip completely.

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Yeah, that is the Concert Noise from Symphobia 2. One thing that made obvious to me that I can’t really mix with my speaker setup is precisely this. I set the volume for that track to be a very low background noise, like I hear in many recordings, and I think to some extent it makes it sound more real. Sometimes I even record myself breathing in and out because I heard that in many excellent recordings when there are low volume passages that are just a few violins and a cello for example.

But with my speakers being rather far away and not really close, I set that track volume to a level that I barely heard it when mixing. Of course, when I brought it into Wavelab Pro 12 and applied a couple of mastering plugins, they brought the floor up a bit, and what to me was a low volume when mixing in Cubase, now I could hear it more after the mastering plugins, and when I listened to it with headphones, it is quite loud and a bit annoying.

But I thought it was a good way to find out if I could mix with my speaker setup or not. Now that I bought the T7Vs, which hopefully I will have much closer, there will be a difference. Unfortunately I didn’t know that the speakers are shipped via UPS and require a signature, and with the typical UPS driver waiting a full milisecond before he gives up and leaves the post it on the door, plus me being on the phone when he rang, I won’t have them until tomorrow, even though I have everything else.

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So that’s a real artist or sound engineer? I thought it was some kind of marketing photo to sell the speakers or workstation or whatever.

71

Well it’s not exactly an issue if the concert noise is baked into the instrument and it was also a creative decision.

You just basically explained why it’s a standard practice to also reference things on headphones, and aligns with what I have been trying to describe.

I highly doubt that anything would change that outcome simply because you buy some Adam T7Vs.

Is it nice to have a decent pair of speakers ? yes. Does that mean it will sound good and provide better detail and resolution in a untreated room ? No.

Even with a great room it’s still difficult to pick up on these details on speakers in general.

Having the speakers closer to you will make some kind of difference, whatever that may be you will soon find out.

That’s a artist from youtube named KARRA.

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Well, I wouldn’t mix with only headphones or with only speakers. In this case it was an exercise, but before I publish it to my Soundcloud account for the enjoyment or punishment of about 200 people at best, you can be certain I will have mixed and mastered this with both, and having listened to it in a variety of regular consumer devices. That concert noise is going to do down to what I normally hear on these types of recordings.

The documentary that Foo Fighters did in 2011 while recording Wasting Light shows a great practice. When they were close to the finished thing, they would test it even on Butch Vig’s factory stereo for a VW Jetta or similar, which unsurprisingly sounded like crap. But it’s not a bad practice to test on several systems, walkmans, car stereos, and whatever you can get your hands on.

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Yes, I agree. I just hope that your new speakers live upto your expectations and make some kind improvement for you, that’s all i’m trying to say. Let us know what you think about them once you have them setup and spend a little bit of time with them, what you think the differences are, the pros or cons etc.

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For sure - get rid of that bed. Re-invent yourself and tailor your space to the new model. Spend some time in tutorials, learning how to use compressors properly, and preserve dynamic-range at all costs, in order to keep that noise-floor low.

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Here’s my current setup. Nothing in the path of the monitor system. My right ear is almost in the sweet spot. I can turn my chair to the right, and use my iPad remote App if I wish. This setup allows for huge multiple screens if wanted, but I keep things minimalist here.

Speaker position is paramount here, and allows for pin-point imaging and placement from the listening position. The soundstage and depth of field is off the charts, and x-over modifications have achieved a completely flat response. The detail is astonishing. Whilst it looks random and convenient, this system is carefully designed and implemented to give a natural, uncoloured presentation. Once the ears are trained to listen flat - everything sounds very lifelike and realistic. In normal operation, the speakers disappear, leaving just a huge field of wondrous 3D audio.

Room treatment is in progress, but after discussions with another member here, I’ve settled on just a large golfing umbrella suspended above my listening position, and concentrated on some meagre foam bass-traps.

Not blowing any trumpet btw. I bought 12” Tannoy DMT reference monitors as an homage to an old dear-departed friend, really liked them, and then released their potential fully by gradually acquiring a Bryston power-amp, pre-amp, and DAC, with thousands spent on cables alone. 10 years of slowly waiting for cheaper used examples, and learning everything there is to know along the way. I enjoyed the journey, and am now better equipped, both physically and mentally, to manipulate the sounds I want to hear - all within the bounds of true realism and a natural sounding approach. I admire my own discipline in this, especially since my unlimited budget and wild imagination could have seen me with a ridiculous wall-to-wall desktop setup from hell, just because I could.

So, for me, the Ethos comes first. Then buy the correct speakers that will cover all your requirements. Then the amp to control them. Then cables to maximise potential. Gain knowledge at all times. Every day is a learning day. Learning you were wrong is no big deal, so long as you are open, honest, and willing to improve.

75

Above all - be honest with yourself.

A batchelor’s degree in music marketing. Was basically flipping burgers upon graduation, and made $2400 from music her first year in L.A. Suddenly her first album project had $100,000 invested in it, despite it being a hotch-potch of generic presets with a heavily auto tuned vocal with an overabundance of breath.

“Commercial Bimbo” is a title worthy of this supreme effort of ‘artistry’.

I would imagine Everything is for sale with this one. Just visit the website. Prices start at $29.99.

(Warning - Colours of used undergarments may vary slightly from the pictures shown)

Yes, your daughter does have nice hands Mrs. Worthington.

On the plus side, and back on topic - this video shows a better angle of the distances involved in this setup. Pull those speakers narrower, and lessen the angle, and this might be workable for decent pre-production and hobbyist endeavours.

76

Are you joking, or there really is a bachelor’s degree in music marketing?

Based on playing a few seconds of the video here and there, your assessment is right on the mark. My first impression upon listening to her “song” was “What the f*** is this s***??”. That said, I found the puppet funny, the few seconds I watched the video.

I don’t know what she sells, but I would prefer to do something more productive than visiting her website, like looking at the ceiling.

Also, my comment that she was “hot”, was only from looking at the first photo of her. Now that I know her face, I definitely recant that comment. The crappy music also takes several points off.

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77

Well, after UPS came by with my speakers yesterday and took off faster than I could say “Wait!”, they finally arrived today, on one of the busiest days of my life, so I couldn’t get them out of the box until 9:30 PM, and I couldn’t test them at a decent volume because by the time I finished unboxing them and connecting them it was way after 10 PM.

There’s no chance I can mount these on supports. They are gigantic. But for now I placed them along with my other front speakers, so it’s a Pioneer tower speaker, then the T7Vs on top, and the JBL Stage A130 on top of that, so it looks almost like a show room. Eventually I will create a dedicated audio workstation in the guest room where they will be much closer to me, but for now, that’s the best I can do.

My first impression is good, they sound nice but neutral like they should. Well, up to a certain point, because the bass is very lacking. My JBL A130s have way more bass than the T7Vs. This is something that a guy on YouTube was saying about them, but I disregarded it because the guy produced hip-hop, and there’s no other genre that has more excessive bass than that. One of few hip-hop songs I like, “Gangsta’s Paradise” is a song that when it comes up on a playlist, I have to lower the bass to the minimum.

So I figured that guy was expecting the kind of overbearing sub bass that you get in hip-hop, and used to mix for that genre, obviously everything is going to seem lacking.

I played some songs that I remember had a decent amount of sub bass, and these speakers barely put out anything below 150 Hz. With my Pioneer towers (which have rather small woofers, but really well designed by Andrew Jones), I get far more bass than this.

So the thing to consider now is, do I try another brand of studio monitors, perhaps even the ones that guy recommended? Or do I add a $500 Adam Audio 10” subwoofer to the mix? I’m not too crazy about their subwoofer line. It seems really absurd that your choices are a $500 down-firing 10” sub, and if you want a forward facing 10” sub, you have to pay $1,700, which is the same price they have the 12” one.

In my experience with subwoofers, 12” is the bare minimum for good sub bass. 10” just doesn’t cut it. Granted, my my experience is only with consumer subwoofers. So this one could be better, I don’t know. I’m also not crazy about it being down-firing, because I like to hear the bass, but not the floor rattling. I have a BIC America 12” sub that produces excellent sub bass without making the floor vibrate like a down-firing sub.

I could also get this JBL Professional LSR310S: Amazon.com: JBL Professional LSR310S - Studio Monitor Subwoofer, 10-Inch, Black : Everything Else

So I don’t know, but if you guys know of speakers similar to the T7Vs but with decent bass (even if not sub bass because it’s impossible with a woofer that small), and at around the same price, please let me know.

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Couple of alternatives here. The i8 drivers are very good. High power handling, and they extend down to 70hz, which is reasonable.

The original K-Roks are a more ‘American’ sound, have 70hz bass, and a reasonably efficient 100W handling.

Both could benefit from a sub, but I have monitored with both in the distant past and didn’t use a sub here. The Tannoy dual-concentric point-source is excellent for nearfield work, and the K-Rok is a true ‘bookshelf’ unit. These would be my choice over an Adam or cheap JBL.

I literally know nothing about subs in the studio, but my understanding is that audiophile usage mainly involves ‘controlling’ the bottom end, rather than adding a shedload of earthquake-inducing mulch. Quite normal to use 2 subs, one for each monitor.

Since you are lacking bass, then the sub you choose would be additive, rather than a controlling medium. So just one might suffice.

In a small room, a 12” sub might be too slow to pair with small monitors. An 8” sub, ported correctly and positioned well can make a huge difference. You don’t want to hear it, so much as know it’s there, if you understand that.

Others will hopefully add their views on this. I’m coming from a purely audiophile stance on this, and purely nearfield use does negate some of the considerations of setup, but the speakers need to project predictably, and the Tannoys win that contest, since the tweeter is dead centre of the woofer - point source, time-aligned perfection - generally with 90-degree dispersal, which is very good.

If you wish to commit to the Adams, then yes, a sub will help things along, but it’s about ‘slam’ capability and speed, rather than size. A slow, lumbering 12” might really annoy you quite quickly, and never co-exist in your system in a meaningful way.

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Of course, you could forget the sub, and simply spend a little more to get a pair of these beauties…

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Prices used start at $500, which is an utter bargain. You’ll never look at another speaker again, and your hip-hop pals will be so impressed with the bottom-end.

If you can find some within a 1000-mile radius, then just go get them. They will relate pretty well to orchestral stuff too, which is where I believe you wish to venture.

But they excel with this kind of sub-bass mayhem. Just watch those cones don’t jump out the baskets!

(I can play The WHO’s Quadrophenia on my stuff at max volume, and it’s like being in the control room. Kings-X sound awesome. Zappa stuff shows every nuance of production. But beware this modern stuff with Meta-Bass plugins on it etc. It’s really not musical, and is designed to destroy both speakers, and bowels!)

For music production in general, an amp with a damping factor of 250-500 is a good idea, in order to control those cones. Worth looking at power-amps from QSC, Crown, and of course - Bryston. A pair of bridged Bryston 2BLP’s are $700 used, will provide over 100 clean watts each, and are a great synergistic match for smaller Tannoy DMT’s.

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If sticking with Adam stuff, then this is the model that makes the most sense out of their range. Worth reading the full review.

Avoid Adam subs, as they have quality control issues. Unclear whether this extends across their range, but there’s no smoke without fire.

Naturally, 90’s Tannoys don’t have these problems.