How Steinberg failed with VST3

RTAS is a PT thing so… not really relevant. It’s so dominant (or at least was) people will code for it. AU is pretty widely supported on OSX hosts afaik so I’m not sure what the point is there exactly.

Is there a major or minor OSX audio host that doesn’t support AU? Maybe there is… dunno. I thought they all did. Either way, I’m pretty sure it’s probably much more than 2?

Here’s a partial list of 11… and take note that music daws aren’t the only place where these plugs sell. I use VST plugs in Vegas also and you can see Final Cut Pro listed below for AU? As far as I know there are only 2 applications on the entire planet that can host VST3 plugs… in any application class… Cubendo and Studio One… and only one host that supports VST 3.5… Cubase 6… though you may see some of the new stuff in Studio One since they’re already VST3, I assume they’ll jump on 3.5 and note expression before anyone else.

AU are used by Apple applications such as GarageBand, Soundtrack Pro, Logic Express, Logic Pro, Final Cut Pro, MainStage and most 3rd party audio software developed for Mac OS X such as Ardour, Ableton Live, REAPER and Digital Performer.

All I’m saying is that for the small developer there doesn’t appear to be any real advantage to changing anything until more hosts actually start supporting it.

It’s been 3 years since VST3 was introduced and the only host that has adopted it was one that was kinda brand new since that time… and which (coincidentally or not) has a bunch of ex Steinberg employees. :wink:

VST3 is used by Cubase, Cubase Artist, Nuendo, Nuendo NEK, WAVELAB, S!. 7 apps at least. :mrgreen:

Chris Halaby’s Industry Focus (KVR Audio):

“HALion’s 4 implements the new and innovative VST 3.5 format in a couple of ways. It uses Note Expression for editing expression data polyphonically and the enhanced MegaTrig tool for programming instrument articulations, varying playing styles and complex conditional triggering modules without the need for page-filling scripting code. VST Developers should take note of this.”

Yeah, Steinberg is really out to screw people over… NOT! Get real! Get HALion 4!!! :wink:

:mrgreen: :laughing: Good one. You forgot Cubase Essential, LE5 and S1 Artist. Thanks, that gave me a good chuckle.

Look guys, I’m not suggesting that VST3 is “bad” or something, far from it. I actually like it. I’m only suggesting that as cool as Note Expression is (for example) there’s only one company that makes applications where you can use it… Steinberg (afaik)… until some other hosts adopt the new VST3 standard? Maybe that’s part of the plan, dunno.

But maybe the conversation should also be… “why haven’t they (other hosts) adopted it yet?”. Why focus all the attention on the plugin devs saying why they should and how easy it is and they should hire more staff and yada, yada?

Major host mfgs surely have more resources and devs and money and all that. I wonder why it’s taking so long for them to get on board? Does anyone know?

Other hosts are FL Studio, n-Track, Studio One and the VSL Host (Vienna Symphonic Library).

Thanks Elektrobolt, the list is a tiny bit longer than I thought but n-track isn’t exactly what I had in mind. :neutral_face: But thanks for the info. FLStudio is a good one, great host.

So what’s holding up the main pro host market like with Sonar, Live, Samplitude, Reaper, Acid Pro, Vegas, Audition, SAW and similar (and all the others windows audio editors like Pyramix, Audacity, etc, etc, etc using VST), a pretty long list of hosts in pretty wide professional use (if you know)?

What is it about the protocol that they don’t like? If you know.

I thought - back in 2008 when it came out - that most of them would be on it a few years later and here we are, a few years later.

Of course, I cannot know, only speculate…

I don’t think there is anything about the protocol itself to the dislike. Perhaps it’s more that some of the vendors do not see the “music world” as Steinberg does, or they just don’t agree with the path that Steinberg is taking. Or perhaps they see a HUGE change in their software…

Note Expression is bound to show people that there are new things invented, ways to do it, and still have the old things hanging about. However, nothing can be implemented, software wise, without a little bit of effort. Like said before in this thread, when coding a VST3 plug, you get VST2.4 and AU plugs “for free” so to speak, no special code needed.

As you undoubtadly have seen, there is a number of people out there that downright is trying to trivialize VST3 with a bunch of garble. That it doesn’t give you anything new, etc. That VST2.4 COULD have been made to do what VST3 does, etc. Of course it could have, but that does not make it any less to code for. You still have to add the code to deal with new “feature”, unless your point is to not support them.

I personally like the whine about “we need an open standard” (or “open source”, in some instances). Here’s a Q&A from the FAQ in the VST Technical Background document: “Is VST still an open and free standard? Yes. VST is still an open and free standard.”. The SDK can be downloaded for free.

I have read from several VST3 vendors and they have all said that it really isn’t that much of a change to accomodate VST3. Naturally, some change is needed, but more or less, depending on how modular your plug already was.

In perspective, one has to remember that the interface between plug-in and host is really not that advanced, software speaking. What I mean here, is that the VST protocol in itself is really very simplistic in nature. The actual code that make the specific plug or host is of course much more advanced, but in order for them to work together, the scheme has to be made rather simple.

On a comparison note (albeit digressing a bit), if you know about or understand COM, you can see why this is true. COM is very simple, and has been used virtually everywhere in Windows since the early-mid 1990. (I picked COM, because I was involved with it early on, but there are other similar technologies.) If you have liked the easiness of copying data from A to B, say editing your email in Office Word then sending it through Office Outlook, or even between different computers, then you like the concept of COM. :slight_smile: Component Object Model - Wikipedia (For interested people.)

There are of course other things than the plug-ins themselves to be considered, here’s an excerpt from the VST3 SDK announcement “Optional SKI Integration: Combined with the use of the additional Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI), VST3 plug-ins can integrate directly into Steinberg host software at application level, enabling VST3 plug-ins to create tracks, perform copy/cut/paste tasks and many other operations”, and as some site added “SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request”.

So back on track then…

I think a lot of the unwillingness is partially due to the fact that the protocol fundamentally changed, and is cause for uncertainty and the fact of being forced to update their software. But ultimately I think somewhere we are seeing some sort of a “stand”, by some of the vendors. You can see which ones are against VST3, and whatever reasons they may give. I am not sure exactly where this “anti” comes from, TBH. VST3 is a step forward, even if many will try and tell you otherwise. Steiny aren’t a bunch of dummies you know.

That is another thing I like about the “opposition”, they are defending VST2.4, but cutting VST3, saying that Steinberg always “screw people with just arbitrarily changing things”, “selling vaporware and new terms”, “repackaging old with new names”, etc. just to make more money. Yet all VST versions were invented by Steinberg.

AND incidentally, some of these opposing companies do sell plug-ins, and a slur of matching “expansions” or sound sets with fancy names, for 50 bucks a pop. I am not saying they are bad, at all, just that they seem more interesting in their shop and selling, than in the satisfaction of the customer. And when Steiny creates a new cool technology (e.g. Note Expression), that require these plugs to be updated, so they can take advantage of it, and there is absolutley no interest, but rather distincly the opposite. So much for their slander of Steinberg.

Anyways, just my venting, oh I meant speculating… lol

u-he.com’s Zebra VST3/64-bit is coming… A STRIPED STAMPEDE! :slight_smile:

I have no idea but for a lot of 3rd party companies who have their line of plugins updated and shiny, ready for the shops, it must be a little like climbing to the top of K2 only to see the freakin’ Mount Everest!!! WTF! :astonished: Please! Joke’s over … because it is a joke, right? :open_mouth:

Maybe it will take some time and maybe it’s not for every plugin coder out there but eventually I think VST3 will find it’s place, whatever that means. They just need to inhale before they exhale :wink:

I am sure that some of them aren’t as clever a coder, sure. And yes, of course, VST3 is not for all.

In any case if so, these folks also shouldn’t claim some of what they are claiming. (see fragmented quotes above)

Urs Heckmann is a one man shop, well was, before he hired a second developer (recently). Super quality plugs. He’s converting to VST3. http://www.u-he.com/

Harry Gohs is a slim shop to. Super quality plugs. He’s converting to VST3. http://www.virsyn.com/

FabFilter is no huge outfit either, but oh my what quality plugs. http://www.fabfilter.com/

Absolutely, I do agree with this. I am only beachin on those who are simply (and IMO unjustly) trying to trample on the new VST3 standard.

“Tack” for defusing my very long post, Ulf. I get mighty tired of the “anti”-groups at times, and tend to ramble on.

I beg pardon all! :smiley:

Thanks for that Elektrobolt. And yes, I know COM and what you say makes sense.

Anyway, as most of you know I kinda “switched” to Studio One which is a VST3 host. I still own and occasionally use Cubase but (curiously enough) aside from the large things like VST Expression and similar, S1 kinda takes more advantage of VST3 than Steiny does, or did.

I mean, calling envelopes from the plug had been there all the time since V1 and Cubase 5 (the second VST3 host after C4 I think?) doesn’t even have it. Not only calling envelopes but (and my C6 demo is expired so I can’t look again) you can even destroy envelopes directly from the plug-in knob. I assume this has to do with the way VST3 “reports” plugin parameters to the host? So, it seems to me that Steiny itself isn’t even taking “full” advantage of it yet, focusing more on the stuff that sells updates, the big ticket stuff… which is cool. Literally everything that moves in that host (beyond plugs) can call or destroy it’s envelope via right click. Every pan know, send control, whatever… everything. If that’s not VST3 allowing that in the host… then I’d ask… why doesn’t every host do that? It’s almost like they built the entire UI to the VST3 plugin spec… the way all that works.

Anyway, I don’t have anything against VST3. I was just kinda curious as to what’s holding everyone up.

Thanks Elecktrobolt. I appreciate the concise writings man.

You got to use what works for You, mate.

Of course we all hope you eventually work your way back to the family! :smiley:

Oh I understand, since really there is nothing at all to be “against”. I mean, one does have the option not to use it.

From a plug-in developer perspective, I can understand the reluctance to support it. However, to actively suppress something, like VST3, for some “forced principles” (to put it short) that in the overall scheme of things, don’t make a difference, makes no sense, to me. But then, that’s me! :slight_smile:

Hey, thanks, mate! I do try to make it descriptive and truthful, which sometimes require a bit of space, LOL!

:laughing: True that.

It’s rare to have a mature discussion about anything when people start taking sides and digging in… so the “truthful” part you mention above is only helpful if people actually stop to listen.

I “listened” and you made pretty good sense to me. I’d pretty much always rather know what’s true than to just be right (or be thinking I’m right and still be wrong) … except as maybe relates to a cheating spouse. :laughing:

Some truths I’d maybe prefer not to know. :mrgreen: Ignorance truly is bliss in a few specific cases.

just to update this - Beta 64bit BFD2 has just been released by fxpansion: