How to input _ and ''' in Lyrics

Dorico
#1

I noticed some unexpected (at least for me) behavior with underscores and single quotes when entering lyrics.

When inserting underscores I get a small bow:
Bildschirmfoto 2016-12-09 um 18.32.57.png
When inserting multiple single quotes they automatically get styled differently:
Bildschirmfoto 2016-12-09 um 18.33.23.png
I’d like to use both things on work sheets. c’’ and c’’’ for example are used for signing the octaves in Germany. And __ would be cool to create space for students input.

I could use shift-x. Both problems do not occur there, but this one comes without spacing layout helpers.

Are there special key-combinations in lyrics mode for both signs?

#2

I do not understand why you would enter an underscore as a lyric under those notes… but ok, let’s try to help you ! What is figured out when you write an underscore between two words is the way to write that the end of the previous word and the beginning of the new one is sung on the same note. The same thing can be achieved using ctrl-alt-space (uncut space), but without the little slur between the syllables.
I have been searching for a workaround in the lyrics field with my mac and my french keyboard but so far, I get the exact same results as you do. Maybe changing the lyrics fonts could help as far as the ‘’’ are concerned (a sans serif font, like the one used in Terminal, could make it) — I find that Scriptina works, but it is an italic font…
Ok, I found a workaround, using alt-shift-’ or " (4 key or 3 key). You get a rounded ’, but always the same.
As for ___ I don’t have a clue.

#3

There’s no way to prevent Dorico from smartening single (and indeed double) quotes entered in lyrics, I’m afraid. I think for actual lyrics it’s always desirable to do this, so really subverting the lyrics feature from its intended purpose to do this kind of thing. I’m afraid you’ll have to use Shift+X text for this.

#4

TextWrangler on Mac allows you to bypass socalled smart quotes and get a straight quote for a given keystroke by adding the Control key. I don’t know what key to suggest for Windows. I think that would be a usable solution for this case. But not for lyrics.

A “smart” quote feature is misnamed (to put it politely) if it yields wrong results. I blame Microsoft more than anyone else for promulgating the overly simple algorithm that any quote that does not follow a letter must be an open-quote. About 15 years ago I made myself a macro that substitutes ’ for ’ in my chat program, and it is correct 99% of the time. On the rare occasion I actually want an open single quote I type it with Option-].

How often does one need an open single quote in lyrics? The current feature produces incorrect typography; one result is that I will always avoid using it at all by typing text elsewhere; another result is that thousands of users will type the wrong blasted character at the beginning of a lyric syllable every single time.

P.S. This rant more properly belongs in this thread.

#5

If you mean that Dorico can’t print a lyric such as ’eaven ’elp an honest girl that sounds like a very annoying problem waiting for me when I have the time to start using it properly. I’ve just done a very satisfactory one-page Responsorial Psalm so far with no leading apostrophes.

#6

Thanks, I’m gonna use the available options

#7

Not to say it can’t be done in Dorico; just that the smart quotes feature is no help with it as implemented.

#8

Sibelius also uses the underscore to generate this elision sign. This is frequently needed in Italian vocal/choral music, and elsewhere (see Gould p446 — also pp 436 and 453 for other uses).

#9

Well, actually, I’m a professional solo opera singer, and I NEVER come across elision signs — although I would understand them ! (My library includes ALL kind of music from 18th to 20th century, Ricordi, Bärenreiter, Breikopf, Salabert, Durand, Boosey and Hawkes, etc. editions)
That is why I got the habit of never engraving any, but to put an uncut space (ctrl-alt-space in Dorico) instead.

[Edit]I am very satisfied that the elision sign exists so that people that are used to using it can do so in Dorico!

#10

I use elision signs to show where no breath should be taken at the end of a phrase in eg hymns. I think traditionally in art song and opera in French and Italian elisions aren’t signed, but, as Marc says, just put on the same note with a non-braking space between them.

#11

This behaviour is driving me crazy. I definitely do not want “smart quotes” on phrases like “'tis manna to the hungry soul” - the quote is the wrong way round, and, as a professional editor, I find that completely unacceptable. I consider this badly broken if there’s no way to turn smart quotes off.

#12

You can sort of trick the parser: Input another letter before the apostrophe: “a’tis” and close the popover, then delete the letter in a second step.

#13

On the Mac, just type the keyboard shortcut for the curly single quote that you want: Alt ] and Shift-Alt ] for left and right, respectively. I presume Windows has an equivalent.

(I got used to using these all the time in Finale, which only offers straight quotes at all times. :unamused: )


Screenshot 7.png

#14

Not system-wide, I think, at least not with the standard german keyboard layout. I suppose it’s possible to type Unicode values with Alt to get them though.

#15

At worst one should be able to copy and paste the appropriate character from the Windows CharacterMap utility.

#16

Presumably as a professional editor you would also consider a straight quote completely unacceptable. As others have indicated, you should manually enter the curly quote that you need in that case.

It would be nice if Dorico could handle this situation more automatically, but unfortunately its algorithm can at present only operate on a single lyric rather than on all of the lyrics entered, so some context is not available.

#17

I’d accept straight quotes, but Dorico still changes them to the wrong curly quote.

#18

Yes, it will indiscriminately apply its algorithm for smart quotes, which does of course mean that in fact you cannot easily use a straight quote. However, I’m reluctant to introduce an option to disable smart quotes, since I think in the vast majority of cases, smartening quotes algorithmically produces the correct result, and curly quotes always look better than straight ones.

#19

Daniel, are there plans to include automatic curly quote in text frames as well? Thanks.

#20

It’s certainly something we could add.