How to set this bar of Haydn

Referring to this bar from the Richomme engraving of a Haydn string quartet, Paris 1803, violin part, how can I duplicate that in Dorico?

image

Seems to me to be very tricky.

Hi Andro.
A little bit tricky. I would handle the upstem voice this way. Start with an 8th note rest. Apply a 12:8e tuplet to it. Write the 11 8th notes, remove the rest and make sure the tuplet does not appear (properties panel). Scale down to grace (or cue, depending on the design you want).
Input the down-stem voice. Make sure the quarter note and its 8th note counterpart share the same column index (Engrave mode>properties panel)
That’s it!

I did this. Use an 11:6 tuplet, then hide the rest and tuplet (as did Marc!)

Screenshot

However, I couldn’t make the voice columns work. Both are set to 0, but they still don’t align. There’s probably an Engraving Option somewhere.

Thanks Ben. The problem here is the tuplet. Mine is not accurate either, I realize that thanks to yours. So what should work is start with an 8th note rest, a 8:6e tuplet, and then a 4:2e for the last beat, to make sure the f is on the last beat (and the notes can share the column). Sorry for the mistake in the first place. Not sure all those notes can be beamed together though. If not, simply changing the first 8th redt to five eighth rests and uding a 16:8e tuplet should take care of it.

That’s it!. Here’s the finished article.

Screenshot

Again, I used 7:4 and 4:2 tuplets, then beamed them together. Having one beat’s rest at the start gives a bit more room for the dotted note. Some note spacing is required to line up the stem.

Start with an 8th rest, which you can remove later. Then apply a 7:5e tuplet starting on the 2nd 8th of the bar. On the 4th beat, apply a 4:2e tuplet. Beam all the tuplet notes together and hide the brackets and numbers. Resize them (I did cue size), but make the 4th-last 8th-note head normal size - for me, at least, that solved the alignment problem. I couldn’t work out how to change the vertical position of the dot on the very first note, though.

(Edit, a few minutes later) - Perhaps a 7:4e tuplet starting on the 2nd beat might be better, leaving a bit more room after the paused dotted half-note. Also, making one of the tuplet noteheads normal size resulted in the beam becoming normal size as well, rather than cue size. This might be unwanted, although in Andro’s pic. of the original, the beam is fairly thick.

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The next pic. is with a 7:4e tuplet starting on the 2nd beat.

[ I finally figured out how to get the dot on the first note to be down rather than up. The trick was to undelete the quarter rest and set its opacity to zero. What might also have made a difference is that the notes which have their stems up are actually in down-stem voice 1 (with stems flipped) and the notes which have their stems down are in up-stem voice 1 (with stems flipped). ]
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Haydn trial.dorico (363.5 KB)

By the way Andro, did the suggestion I made a few weeks ago help with the placement of slurs and staccato wedges? Also, I sent you a message re the Haydn project.

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Oh dear, I forgot to mention that it is in 3/4, not 4/4 as you might assume. My apologies! not enough context given. So sorry! And D flat major, FWIW, not that it matters.

That is not a problem, you can put this bar in 4/4 and hide it… unless you need playback. Or even better : you can nest tuplets, so you can start with a 4:3q tuplet before you follow everyone’s advice here!

Is this the one?

With the help of everybody, I now see this is easily done.

Large thanks!

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@stevenjones01 I am speechless that you managed to locate the precise page from just one bar with no context except the key! Indeed, that is the edition I am making an ‘urtext’ (for lack of a better word) from. I cant imagine how you did that!

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Have you checked your messages?

I fail to see why Andro does not consider the pictures posted by stevenjones01 as correct and appears to approve of one in which the stem of the cue-size note is aligned with the middle of the normal-size one, which as far as I know is not standard or accepted practice. Not only does stevenjones01’s solution match the original, but it realizes what is expected in terms of elegant and balanced notation.

If Andro is happy with it, I wouldn’t worry. It was his query to start with. Each of us who faces this situation can choose the solution we find most appropriate.

Thanks to @stevenjones01 for his solution.

This is one of the things I hope we have control over in the future. I requested the ability to force the dot position a good while back. This is one of those little niggles that gets me from time to time. In polyphonic keyboard writing it can be confusing if you have combined noteheads and the dot appears on the wrong side of a line.

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I have messaged Andro, as a continuation of an existing private message “thread”, pointing out that alignment issue and how I handled it. My guess is that, like myself and many others who have found a solution to a large problem, he has simply overlooked a smaller detail - maybe he addressed it after posting his screenshot. But the final decision is up to him. For me, the initial challenge was to fit this number of notes into that number of beats and make it look like the original as closely as possible. Once I had figured out a way of doing that I was feeling somewhat self-satisfied, but that smugness faded quickly when I realised that there was still some touching-up to do as I started noticing the smaller details such as alignment, space between notes, vertical position of the dot, etc.

As much as I understand the contents of your reply and do not intend to belabour the point or object to anyone’s decision of how to set music, I fear that a stem connected in the middle of a notehead rather than aligned with its left or right edge would not be considered acceptable by any reputable publisher as contrary to accepted standards. You were successful in showing how to reproduce in Dorico the original layout, which happens to match what is still the best practice.

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Agreed!

Relax! I simply had not polished the result. Many thanks to all, and note that at no stage did I say any solution was incorrect. All the help is so appreciated.

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And indeed note that I pointed out that the stem needed more work, and never suggested that it was ‘acceptable’ as is.