Always an interesting discussion but I feel that it boils down to two points. One is the perennial attitude ‘it’s what we’re used to seeing’, which is not, as the entire Dorico program has taught veteran users of notation programs, always a valid argument. The other is that the sole reason for beaming to lyric syllables in the past is that with early manuscripts and editions it was otherwise simply impossible to figure out where the syllables were to be placed. There were also the limitation placed by the stamps used to print music. I could post examples here which illustrate this but there are plenty online. As soon as notation became so clear that syllable placement was obvious and such beaming was no longer necessary, the habit had become so ingrained that it was continued.
@tristis: A Ceremony of Carols contains unmeasured sections, which is one of the cases in which I’d certainly beam to lyrics.
There are plenty of examples where beaming goes [partially] against the rhythmic structure, but that generally has a musical reason, like phrasing. But to say that beaming to lyrics has any other function than to show where the syllables are, ignoring the fact that the placement is obvious in modern editions, is assigning a musical function to that practice which is simply doesn’t have. After all, why shouldn’t singers experience rhythm the way the rest of the musical world experiences it?
Imagine two people having a contest to see who can spit the farthest. An observer would be justified in thinking, ‘Don’t they have anything better to do?’
Despite the humour in the reference, and my sympathising with the sentiment, I do think that this issue has slightly more merit than a spitting contest.
This is the crux of the matter. I am arguing that it gives precedence to the text and that this affects the interpretation of the music. I’m also suggesting that connecting two notes together with a beam implies a form that might not have been felt otherwise.
Singers are no different (although a disproportionate number are barely literate musically and you’re lucky if, in your work as a pianist, you’ve never wanted to shoot either the singer or yourself). The music they have to sing is different though precisely because there are words. The words have shapes and rhythms of their own.
I don’t believe Brahms or Britten went to the trouble of notating vocal lines as they did for no good reason (particularly if the syllabification would have been routine for the the engravers).
Interestingly, the beaming of the ad lib. harp part doesn’t follow that of the voices exactly.
Hi, I almost exclusively transcribe manuscripts from the Baroque period.
In Italy it is normal for the syllabic division to be used for singing, preferable to the normal one as for instruments.
I need to look that up. I always find it interesting when a composer does different things in different parts with the same music. In some cases, it seems arbitrary, but I’d never accuse Britten or Brahms of that! On the other hand, at the time, beaming to lyrics has always been and still was standard practice.
And as a keyboard player who has played with a lot of singers, I’ve certainly been in situations where I wanted to shoot both the singer and myself!
@times007: It’s still normal in many places outside of Italy to beam to lyrics. This still doesn’t negate my arguments and those of several other contributors.
Well I wanted to explain why I made this request.
I am asked to transcribe exactly as in the manuscript, so it would be interesting if Dorico had a plug-in or an ad hoc function specific to this issue.
Score example …
Setting yourself up to judge the expertise of people you don’t even know makes you sound more pompous that I hope you are. It seems to me that this discussion has probably given Daniel and his colleagues all the info on users’ feelings they need to decide what to do moving forward.
This is interesting. I guess it ultimately boils down to how intelligent/trained a musician is. I would never dare sing a long melisma of 16ths by Handel legato unless marked so, even if there was a slur to indicate groupings. In fact, most long melismas omit slurs all together (even in editions that use instrumental beaming and slurs) because it’s so obvious when no other lyrics appear for measures at a time. If all the instruments are playing slow and legato, that’s likely how I’ll be singing, and if it’s fast and marcato, I’ll be singing that way too. Context matters. Most singers, even poorly trained ones, will intuit this even if there are slurs in the score.
This veers dangerously close to insinuating that choral singers who do not have solo careers are in some way lesser singers. I have an MM in music and have sung very large repertoire with choirs on multiple continents combined with full orchestra many times. I’d hate to think that since voice isn’t my primary instrument and I therefore do not have an operatic solo singing career (although I do solo sing in front of hundreds every week at my church job and I’m a full-time choir director) that I’m somehow a “lesser” singer who just doesn’t get it.
As I’ve said previously, I’ve sung from syllabic editions many times. I understand it, I read it, I sing it. I also hate it. But I concede that it is a preference. But I also find it ironic that it was a running joke at both universities I attended that singers don’t know how to read rhythm properly. I am not joking and I bet others on the forum have heard the same stereotype.
But at the end of the day, as has been referenced here, I’m not opposed to Dorico offering “beamed to syllables” as an automatic option, even if I won’t be using it. Same goes for many other features I’m glad are included for others. Chacun à son goût.
I am pompous. I can’t help it, don’t deny it, but can at least laugh at myself. You however seem to be unashamedly ignorant. Anyway, it’s not the day to be having a punch-up.
Choral and operatic singing do have very little in common though and most choral singers will never know anything of the emotional and physical exertion involved in singing on stage. There aren’t many musicians who haven’t sung in choirs (though sadly it’s more common nowadays) but very few would ever be capable of singing a profound lied or mélodie let alone a demanding operatic role.
For the record, tristis, I must say I have found this thread very interesting and feel less old-fashioned in my beaming (but anyways, my fellow clients would not let me do it the other way). I only wish no-one’s feelings were hurt in the process ! Merry Xmas all !
