Sorry. This is not what any of us see!
Try adding some text (shift-x “Flow 3 start”) to the first bar of flow 3 and then add your 120 bars to flow 2. Do you see what happens?
Now delete flow 2 (setup mode, select flow2 panel and hit delete)
What are you left with?
I did not describe the problem properly so it is my fault if I have confused the readers.
I have to rely on what I see with the file that I have been using. Here is a description that should highlight the problems.
I have a file with 5 flows.
—Flow 1 has 3 pages: 1, 2, and 3.
Title of the project: To learn…
Title of the flow 1: 1T) Summary…
—Flow 2 has 3 pages: 4, 5, and 6.
Title of the flow 2: 2B) Summary …
It starts with G2 to A3 on the bass clef.
—Flow 3 has 2 pages: 7, and 8.
Title of the flow 3: 1.1T) …
It starts with E4 to F5 on the treble clef.
—Flow 4 has 2 pages: 9, and 10.
Title of the flow 4: 1.2T) …
It starts with F4 to E5 on the treble clef.
—Flow 5 has 3 pages: 11, 12, and 13.
Title of the flow 4: 1.3T) …
It starts with F5 to C8 on the treble clef.
Now I add 120 bars at the end of flow 2 that represents 3 pages.
My assumption is that, adding 120 bars at the end of flow 2, will simply shift by 3 pages both the titles and the bars of the following flows 3, 4, 5 so I should have now these flows starting the following way:
flow 3 now starts at page 10, then page 11 with the original title and starting notes of flow 3.
flow 4 now starts at page 12, then page 13 with the original title and starting notes of flow 4.
flow 5 now starts at page 14, then page 15, then page 16 with the original title and starting notes of flow 5.
Here is what I observe instead when I add 120 bars to flow 2 representing approximately 3 pages.
—Flow 2 indeed has pages 7, 8, and 9 added to it.
—BUT on page 7, the title of flow 3 1.1T)… is at the top of page 7 with the blank added bars on page 7.
—Page 8 has only blank bars.
—Page 9 now has the title for flow 4 1.2T)… with blank bars (not a full page).
—On page 10, I now see 3. Flow 3 instead of seeing the title of flow 3 1.1T)… and I now see the starting notes of flow 3 E4 to F5 on page 10.
—Page 11. At the top, I see the title of flow 5 1.3T) … but not even with the starting notes of flow 5!
—Page 12 has the title now 4. Flow 4 with the notes that started flow 4 F4 to E5. Flow 4 has 2 pages.
—Page 14 has title 5. Flow 5 instead of 1.3T) and the notes starting flow 5 that is F5 to C8 are there on page 14.
This new flow 5 has 3 pages.
I hope this detailed explanation highlights the problems that I encountered.
Please upload a Dorico project that illustrates the problem, with steps. I’m not inclined to follow your textual description and fill in the blanks, and I’m not sure I could even if I wanted to. At the very least, upload a picture so we can visualise what your layout looks like.
But - from skim-reading the stuff above - how are you putting the titles on the sections? If by manually drawing frames, that is poor use of Dorico. Construct custom Master Pages or Custom Flow Headings that include the extra bits of information you need, then call them in as necessary. No, they won’t move automatically, because they’re tied to the page, not the music, but they’re easy to move if need be (from the right panel of Engrave mode). Much as I hate to say it - as I’ve been grumbling about this particular thing for some years - this is working as designed. It’s just not designed the way that you (or I) would like it to be designed.
I am past attempts to read lengthy, contorted descriptions of problems because a complainant will not send a file or file excerpt even directly to one of the Dorico Development team for a look.
Your explanation is very clear.
Post the file here, and your problem will be solved in no time.
I repeat below my description because I use them to create a test file and the problems observed are different with this test file than with my original file.
I put the differences by indicating: CORRECTION.
And I join the test file that I attach here.
I did observe more problems in my original file than in my test file that I attach here but there are still problems that you should notice with this test file that I attach here.
Test for Dorico 3.5 done on 24.07.2021 - Copy.dorico (530.3 KB)
I did not describe the problem properly so it is my fault if I have confused the readers.
I have to rely on what I see with the file that I have been using. Here is a description that should highlight the problems.
I have a file with 5 flows.
—Flow 1 has 3 pages: 1, 2, and 3.
Title of the project: To learn…
Title of the flow 1: 1T) Summary…
—Flow 2 has 3 pages: 4, 5, and 6.
Title of the flow 2: 2B) Summary …
It starts with G2 to A3 on the bass clef.
—Flow 3 has 2 pages: 7, and 8.
Title of the flow 3: 1.1T) …
It starts with E4 to F5 on the treble clef.
—Flow 4 has 2 pages: 9, and 10.
Title of the flow 4: 1.2T) …
It starts with F4 to E5 on the treble clef.
—Flow 5 has 3 pages: 11, 12, and 13.
Title of the flow 4: 1.3T) …
It starts with F5 to C8 on the treble clef.
Now I add 120 bars at the end of flow 2 that represents 3 pages.
My assumption is that, adding 120 bars at the end of flow 2, will simply shift by 3 pages both the titles and the bars of the following flows 3, 4, 5 so I should have now these flows starting the following way:
flow 3 now starts at page 10, then page 11 with the original title and starting notes of flow 3.
flow 4 now starts at page 12, then page 13 with the original title and starting notes of flow 4.
flow 5 now starts at page 14, then page 15, then page 16 with the original title and starting notes of flow 5.
—Page 13 has 5. Flow 5 at the top but NOT the title of Flow 5 that is 1.3T) and the normal starting notes for Flow 5.
—Page 14 and page 15 has title Flow 5 and the notes that were on page 12 and 13.
This new flow 5 has 3 pages.
I hope this detailed explanation highlights the problems that I encountered.
I created this test file called “Test for Dorico 3.5 done on 24.07.2021.dorico” just following the instructions that I have written myself when I first recorded what I noticed with my original file. This test file is NOT my original file BUT it will highlight problems that I list above.
It is interesting to notice that I had to change what I noticed with this test file, as a few points are different with this test file when I add 120 bars on flow 2 than when I use my original file.
Now my claim is the following that I once again repeat here so that Dorico can spot the problems and correct them.
When you add 120 bars on flow 2 (approximately 3 pages), I expect the software to simply shift by three pages the subsequent pages and keep everything the same and in order (same title of the flow with the same pages with the same notes). As you can see with the test file that I join, there are problems.
Another second test to do. Imagine that I decide to switch Flow 5 and put it just after Flow 1 and move Flow 2 at the end. Again, I assume that the software will smoothly simply make the change from Flow to to Flow 5 and from Flow 5 to Flow 2 and all the various elements in this file will harmonise without problems.
To do that, I just go to Setup mode and move Flow 5 just after Flow 1 and Flow 2 just after Flow 4.
Back to the Write mode to see if the entire project is updated harmoniously I could say, that is without problems.
—Page 4 has the tile for Flow 5 as 2B) Summary when the title for Flow 5 is 1.3T) …
That seems to be the main issue, the title of the flow.
My original file has more issues for the first test. I did not try the second test on my original file.
So you wanted to have a dorico file to check these issues out, check them out.
Dear @MichaelIsGreat - I’ll be completely honest, I’ve not read your post other than a quick skim-read because that’s an awful lot of information. I have however opened your project to take a look.
As suspected, you added information directly on pages, creating page overrides. This locks the information to the specific page number. It will not move when you lengthen/shorten flows.
See the red triangles in the Pages panel in Engrave mode: these are page overrides. The end of flow 2 is, in the project you shared, on p6. Page 7 has an override, meaning the existing title of Flow 3 won’t move when flow 2 gets longer.
Two very easy steps to correct this:
Test for Dorico 3.5 done on 24.07.2021_LH.dorico (431.7 KB)
Important takeaway:
^ That is good advice for anyone, but especially for users without access to Engrave mode.
Incidentally, if you’re still relatively new to Dorico, you may benefit from our First Steps guide. It includes an explanation of how default title information gets on pages, with the task for adding the title and composer specifying to go to Project Info.
When you have to format the titles of the flow, you can only do that when you go to the page itself and select the various options to format the way you want part of the title of the flow. What you suggest does not explain how I could format the title of a flow without going directly on the page itself, double-clicking on the title of the flow and format the title of the flow (various parts of it with different formattings) the way I want?
In Dorico SE, your customization options are limited.
In Dorico Pro, you can do all sorts: you can edit text on the master page, and you can use paragraph styles to produce consistently-formatted text in different circumstances. If you have quite precise ideas about how you want text to look and appear on pages, it might be worth considering upgrading.
If you stick with Dorico SE, you can of course continue to format text directly on pages, but that will result in page overrides. If you’re able to wait until you’ve finished all the music input and the layout is fixed, that wouldn’t necessarily be a problem in and of itself, but you will be replicating a lot of work manually if you only add the actual title name itself directly on pages - by that I mean, you have to enter the title manually on every page in every layout. And of course, if the length of flows change, you might end up with mismatches that you can’t resolve in Dorico SE.
It might be a good idea if in Dorico SE the access to the title and other text frames is locked, so new and unexperienced users can not run into the mess MichaelisGreat did.
This assumption is incorrect because you have (against all our advice) messed with the flow title tokens! All your so-called ‘problems’ result from this mistake!!!
Start again with a new project.
See how well-behaved Dorico is now?
Now, go and make yourself a nice cup of coffee and watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs_DWqR6zd0
I’m sure there is much you will learn about Dorico SE.
(As Lillie has very patiently pointed out to you, more than once, SE version does not have all the capabilities of Pro. Which should not come as a surprise)
Do you think that it is logical (although I assume there might be a reason) that Dorico create page overrides like you explained when you go directly on the page and put a title of a flow and do some basic formattings? It would be much better that Dorico would not create these “stupid” page overrides when a user does such a simple task as clicking on a title of a flow and write the title and do a few formattings!! It is such a simple way to do such a task that it should not result in page overrides!!
@Janus, these points have already been made and I’m sure Michael will digest them and reflect on the available ways to work with such things in Dorico. Everyone learns something for the first time, sometime. Please remain kind and understanding of fellow users.
@MichaelIsGreat there most definitely is a logical reason for this, although I understand it can take some getting used to. Be patient with yourself as you get to know Dorico.
The reason is: if you’ve gone to the effort of making a change to a page, Dorico expects you have a good reason for that. The override is how those changes are saved - Dorico won’t make subsequent changes to that page, because you have said to Dorico “Please keep this page as it is now, thank you”. Your customizations won’t get lost or overridden.
In general, Dorico is quite fluid with things like the number of pages in a layout and where titles go, based on how much music there is and where new flows start. So, fixing things on a page does just that - fix them on that specific page. It can be a useful and powerful tool, but requires some understanding.
I am attempting to remain ‘kind’ (and I’m acutely aware that I, too, sometimes forget the basics).
However, the OP is clearly making the same mistake time after time (ie manually changing flow headings, which creates the page overrides, which as an SE user they cannot see).
Six times they have claimed we are not answering the question! So clearly our language has been unhelpful. I was simply suggesting they go back to square one and then take some time to follow the video tutorial, which might re-frame their mental model about how Dorico SE works.
