I feel completely scattered and disorganized when it comes to complex FX chains and routing

Cubase
1

This is sort of a re-emphasis and alternate communication of a previous thread I made.

I do very deep, complex FX Chaining and Routing.

Now that we have Modulators (which are awesome) things are more complicated especially seeing that Modulators don’t save with Track Presets. A contention in itself.

Sometimes an end-result effect I have created now, is a series of:

  • Source channel
  • Send Split Channel
  • Side-Chain Split Channel
  • Multiple FX Channels
  • Multiple FX Sum Channels
  • An additional Source+FX Sum Channel

And then many of these also have Modulators within, controlling insert/channel parameters.

This magnitude of channels all creates an end result that is the effect.

  • there is no easy/efficient way to bundle this up and save it and recall it.
  • Having to work across so many channels is clunky and confusing

The first point isn’t entirely true, there is Track Archives, but it’s not efficient and the second point still remains - managing so many channels

It would be such a dream, to just have these complex FX developments able to be contained in one entity - an Insert, on one channel:

To be able to essentially transfer, this entire chain, inserts and modulators and all - and package it into one insert.

This is the original thread I created, which didn’t get as much love as I’d hoped, perhaps because it is long and has a lot of detail:

Integrated native plugin Chainer Insert (Steinberg official “wrapper”/Insert expander) - FX MATRIX - Cubase - Steinberg Forums

My vocal chain is 1 source channel, an additional group channel for post processing (after freeze), and then 30 or so utility/FX channels. With the above feature request implemented, I could probably package most of this up into a few channels.

edit

Here is another new idea I just came up with built off this sentiment:
New Channel Type: SideMix Channel (MixConsole, in a single channel) - Cubase - Steinberg Forums

2

You may be unique at this level of complexity. :scream:
I’d be curious to know how many of us here use similar chains.

3

I’ve been an in studio engineer for 45 years.
Never got near needed a routing chain this complex.
Cubase more than covers my needs.

4

Until Cubase offers this I can recommend this plugin:
“Interstate” from Ravine DSP:

5

If a chainer plugin would be the solution, you are doing something wrong with the initial setup.
Maybe you need to try Vocal Chain again.

6

Yikes!!! (On the “30 or so” part.) And I thought the stuff I’ve used can be complex – I do sometimes run out of sends on my lead vocals due to a combination of FX sends and sidechain sends (both to other elements of the FX tracks, such as to duck a reverb or delay somewhat during the singing but bring it back up for tails, and to other tracks for masking control).

But having read through the posts in the other posts you’ve linked here, I also have the impression you are doing some things I would do as destructive editing operations (albeit saving backups in case I want to change my mind later) as live processing. I’ve also never used modulators in vocal chains, at least to date. (In fact, I’ve only used modulators once to date, to simulate a gospel choir moving from side to side with the beat while doing handclaps.)

As mentioned above, I do sometimes (actually fairly frequently on the lead vocal) run out of sends, but I’m definitely nowhere even close to 30 utility/FX channels. But my lead vocal processing can get reasonably complex. For example, a relatively typical thing would be to have the comped lead vocal, rendered with “to tape” processing (i.e. anything that I’d have committed to tape back when I was recording that way, including tape emulation) as the key source ingredient. I’d have disabled the original track with that processing in case I want to change my mind later (though it’s rare), and that original track would have already gone through all the comping dereverbing, noise-related processing, fade edits, manual tuning, and possibly manual or automated leveling (kind of like having punched in and out on overdubs in the old days).

That track will then be routed through a number of FX tracks, with typical ones being a doubler (mostly only used during sections with background vocals since those are manually doubled), an exciter, a delay or two, 2-3 reverbs. The delays will typically also have sends to the reverbs. Some of those FX tracks will also have additional processing on them. Beyond using the high-/low-cut filters in the pre section of the mixer, some might have a compressor with a sidechain from the lead vocal to duck the effects slightly when the vocal is present and/or possibly an unmasking plugin (e.g. Waves Curves Resolve) to automagically reduce masking of the lead vocal by the reverb. (There are some reverbs that do this themselves, but most of the ones I use regularly don’t.) Of course, the lead vocal and all these FX channels will feed into a lead vocal submix group channel, which will, of course, have some further processing on it.

Beyond this, I’ll also often use either the lead vocal or the lead vocal submix to send into other side chains to help dealing with masking and/or level balance considerations. This might go to relevant plugins on the instruments submix and/or the background vocals submix. The lead vocal submix also has a send to the “Rear Bus” (as in the Andrew Scheps technique), as do the background vocals submix and all instruments except drums (and possibly bass). The instruments submix, rear bus, BGVs submix, and lead vocal submix all feed my main mix bus, which then feeds my master bus (on the Stereo Out).

I’ve used VocalChain temporarily while working on comping and such – I now use UAD’s Topline Vocal Suite for that instead as its presets come closer to what I need for this purpose. However, it would be extremely rare for me to use a single vocal chain plugin for a final mix on my lead vocals. There typically is not enough control on routing, no less specific processor choices. Waves’ StudioVerse Effects could possibly be an exception here, but, to be honest, I haven’t even attempted recreating my vocal chain in that, partly because it can be different most every time, with different choices of any of the modules in my overall configuration.

7

I didn’t suggest using a single Vocal Chain plugin instance. But it does some processing in one plugin.

8

Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot you can do, including with routing, in a single VocalChain instance, and maybe you could do more by using more instances. But a key thing you can’t do is pick your own plugins and do the same degree of complex routing you can do with multiple tracks in the MixConsole. Waves StudioVerse Effects does give more capabilities there between being able to use other (including non-Waves) VST3 plugins inside it and having the very flexible parallel and multiband routing entries you can put in any slot, thus multiplying the processing options that can go on in that slot.

Just to give some sense of what I’m talking about, here are the inserts and send portions for the lead vocal chain on my current project:

image
image765×943 40.5 KB

This is using a group folder with the audio submix, so the “Lead Vocal” on the left is actually a folder track and the lead vocal submix. The track just to its right is the post-“tape” mono audio render of the comped lead vocal. It is frozen to save CPU, but had an API channel strip and a UAD A-Type exciter (but using the expander option within that to tame things, rather than excite them) that is directly sending to the 7 effects tracks in the overall chain. Next to the right is an exciter, which just goes straight to the submix, then ADT (automated double-tracking), which goes to everything except the exciter as well as going directly to the submix. Then comes a tape-type slap delay, which, in addition to going to the submix, sends to the plate and chamber reverbs (but not the room reverb (UAD’s Sound City, which is being used for mic placement-type stuff), then the a digital delay, which itself can do ducking based on the input signal (but if I’d used a different delay, I might have had to do that ducking with a compressor after the delay, in which case there would need to be another send on the main lead vocal). The digital delay also sends to the chamber reverb. Then there is the room reverb (really just adding the studio environment, a plate reverb, and a chamber reverb.

The submix level does a little bit in helping on sibilance and some other high-end artifacts, before going into a fader-riding plugin. It also sends to the Rear Bus (along with all instruments and vocals except drums), to a unmasking plugin on the instruments submix and to another on the background vocals submix, and to a lap steel track’s fader riding plugin.

Of course, some of this will get automated over the course of the song, too. It might be (I’d give it about 75% odds) that I could recreate this sort of chain within StudioVerse Effects, though I don’t think I’d want to. The main advantage of doing so would be that I could then freeze the track if needed, rather than having all these plugins be live in a tight CPU situation. But I definitely could not recreate this with VocalChain or even multiple instances of VocalChain.

9

This is a top level Master Template, not all the channels are used all the time and I have to have this for a number of reasons,

1.) Track Presets are only one channel

2.) Track Presets don’t store routings.

3.a) Folder Tracks can’t be track presets…

3.b) …Thus, I have to use ‘Import Tracks From Project’ to import the complex chain with all the inner-routings maintained.

For example, I have a FX sub-folder for just for pitch and vocoder plugins with MIDI tracks already routed and configured so that if a client randomly asks, “can we hear that with auto-tune effect”, I can press a PLE shortcut script and it’s available in an instant.

Multiple separate delay chains, reverb channels, width, etc. I even have an LCR folder preconfigured as mono channels with individual mono effects.

It is indeed a very complex setup - but the results are wonderful.

Not to denigrate your “old man when I was a kid we had to walk 5 miles to school in the snow” comment :stuck_out_tongue: but…

… As you know, a lot has changed over 45 years. And while many projects, I am taking an intentional minimalist approach to suit the project…

… Engineering and mixing is a evolving and competitive art/business and to stand out as a mix engineer - first requires you to be good with the basic obviously, but also requires your own developments through experimentation - getting things to sound exciting, authentic, different, better, wider, more depth, more dynamic, etc, etc.

And I’ve been doing that for a long time. I have notebooks chalk full of engineering notes and experiments, strategies, etc… And I’m very happy with where I am ending up and my work is starting to get some attention.

All I need now, is the ability to bundle up and organize my developments and experiments, effect chains - into some sort of efficient and more in-the-moment useable, recallable environment… Almost like my own version of an Eventide H9000 but for Cubase channels and inserts.

It’s strange that you would assume I am doing something wrong, when perhaps I am busy working engineer who has developed his craft, methodology, and my own stand-out authentic sound.

I am very confident that I know what I am doing, the mixing side of my career is starting to make me some good money after many years of grinding, barely taking a day off.

Vocal Chain is a series processor, whereas what I am talking about is complex parallel processing layers with complex chains.

Those who know how to stand-out, will survive the AI mixing world and those who don’t won’t have a career. I feel good about where I stand today.

Used on the FX buses.

10

Yep there have been massive changes over the last 45 years and I’ve done a good job of keeping up with them.
One thing I know is making your routing chain ridiculous / unnecessary complex does nothing to benefit the finished product.
My comment was in reply to a simple question from a forum user (not you). And certainly wasn’t a dig at you.
You work how you want and post as much on this forum as you feel you need. Nothing to do with me.
Oh and your ageist comment wasn’t patronising at all… :wink:

11

This makes more sense (to me!). I got the, possibly mistaken, impression that you were using all of it, all of the time. Seems more like having all your tools available, just in case you need them.

May be old school but you can’t beat pen(cil) and paper for keeping records.

edited 'cos I left out the word “can’t”. Doh!

12

:100: That’s why sometimes i do miss Ableton as it has Audio effect rack which can do complex routing on channel itself and we can even save that and recall.