I'm finally a "new" lanes convert (Except...)

[Conman]

Cheers AJ. Thought they might have added an obscure option somewhere. Haven’t found one yet.

[A.j]

Ah, a history lesson… how quickly we forget!

Earlier versions of Cubase (pre C6) handled comping takes quite differently - C6’s new system really is a big departure from what came before, and it operates more like Sony Vegas or Reaper now.

In C5 (and earlier), Cubase handled comping on any given track by always playing back the bottom-most take that wasn’t muted. Thus, you could have multiple take segments active at any given vertical point in the project window (up and down the screen). And as long as the bottom-most unmuted lane was the one you wanted to hear, your comp would play back flawlessly. Because of this set-up, you could create a comp and then record multiple new takes without the old comp going away (each new take would appear active in the bottom-most lane, but the old comp would still be active above it).

C6 doesn’t allow this, as we all know well - this is by design, and it’s one of the reasons why the new system is such a departure from the old. Only one take segment can be active at any vertical point in time (up and down the screen), and recording a new take makes THAT the active take (thus causing any/all active take segments above it to no longer be active or “comped” - again, with no option to recover your comp choices short of undoing).

That’s not to say that the new system is bad. It’s actually more efficient in many situations (such as vocal comping), and I’m really warming up to it (particularly when paired with Group Edit). If this problem with “losing your comp choices when doing additional tracking” was fixed, I would likely become a full-on convert to the New Way.

Aj

[Crotchety]

Thanks for the reminder but I’m still struggling to cast my mind that far back…

I’ve found the new comping method is so much better than the old - edits that used to take ‘hours’ now take minutes - that I don’t want to go back. I didn’t feel that at first, of course, but I think that was more to do with inheriting ‘messy’ edits from C5 lanes, many of which I unpicked and did again with unbelievably little fuss. This was my ‘Road to Damascus’ moment.

I know where you’re coming from, AJ, but I’m not finding it easy to even think of a feature request to deal with it. For me, simplicity has been the key with the new lanes and perhaps it may be the solution to your problems.

Perhaps a combination of ‘Delete Overlaps’ and saving a backup to a new lane might do the job. Next time I have the opportunity, though, I’ll put myself in your shoes - comp-as-u-go - see how I find it and post back. In the meantime I’ll keep an eye on the thread but don’t think I’ve got anything new to add.

Good luck,
C

[Kev_Vin]

I thought of a possible solution here… In fact, I gave it a try hoping it would work and we were all on about nothing but alas…

perhaps locking a track after comping should (but currently doesn’t) lock the comped takes as well.At the moment in 6.03 you can comp, lock a track, and still record more takes over the locked track. All that happens is the new take is automatically selected and locked. The old comped regions become muted and the selected bits become lost forever.

I use 6 in my studio, but lecture on 5.5.3 at a media university (they’ve just upgraded all the machines with protools 9, so cubase 6 will have to wait till next year). I’m aware of the changes made between the two versions on a daily basis.

Generally I love 6 and the new method of comping, but every now and then you bump into a new feature that has lost functionality whilst gaining aesthetics and this troubles me. (Automation points come to mind)

We’ve lost the ability to record, comp, record some more, comp some more, all while saving, and having quick access to each and every take. This is a step backward in my opinion.

First prize for me would still be 2 modes of comping

@Kev Vin

We need 2 modes for comping in lanes. Please, please and pretty please Steinberg.

Mode = Auto…exactly as it is now. very nice, it works for some situations, but clearly not all.

Mode= Manual… exactly as it was in all previous versions of cubase. The bottom lane gets play preference and the user chooses when to mute, by using the mute tool. Muted objects stay muted until unmuted by the user. This way when adding an extra take after comping, a simple muting of the new take restores the previous comp.

[Conman]

@crotchety

I know where you’re coming from, AJ, but I’m not finding it easy to even think of a feature request to deal with it. For me, simplicity has been the key with the new lanes and perhaps it may be the solution to your problems.

and

@KevVin

We’ve lost the ability to record, comp, record some more, comp some more, all while saving, and having quick access to each and every take. This is a step backward in my opinion.

I think these sum up these two styles of working here. I go more for a simplistic approach but I think aspects of the second style need looking at if only to clarify a method to work which reduces the clutter involved in avoiding loss of options to redo and / or change the takes without losing any work along the way.
It has to be as simple to use your way as my way.

[system]

It’s not just recording new material that will lose a comp. Two more things will:

1. Moving/copying an event to one of your lanes will make that new event the “active take” for the duration of its length. If it’s a long event, it can wipe out your whole comp. There is a workaround though: mute the event before moving it and the comp will be preserved (until…)

2. If there is a long, inactive part in one of your lanes and you click it, it becomes active and the existing comp is lost. I know this is by design, and you can always undo… but you can only undo if you saw that you made an error! An accidental click on a cluttered screen in a big project can easily go unnoticed… So a single click can wipe out a whole comp…

[Crotchety]

@FunkyDrummer

2. If there is a long, inactive part in one of your lanes and you click it, it becomes active and the existing compe is lost.

Hey, FD, are you not suffering a C5 hangover there, mate? I’m familiar with what you describe. At first, I was very reluctant to cut up my pristine events but it was clearly going against the new regime to try and preserve this as I kept coming up with the problems you’re encountering.

Going with the grain, all lanes are snipped at the same place (Snap To Zero is definitely out here). Let it, it works out okay in the end and stops long events masking others and screwing up the comp. Once happy, you can glue adjacent events back together before ‘Delete Overlaps’, etc.

I know you can partially reveal events and that’s handy I suppose but in the end you’re going to have to x-fade, which involves cutting, so you might as well do it at the start as later.

Resistance is…confusing!

[Crotchety]

Does this do it for you?

I’ve got two Channels of takes, each independently comped. If you Solo Defeat the backing channels (just the click-track here and you may need to manually enable VSTi outputs) you can Ctrl-Solo between comps (forces Exclusive Solo).

At the end of the second section you can see where I’ve cut across all takes to replace the end of take 1, showing that multi-take editing is easy enough by selecting more than one set of events (which can be collapsed to make them easier to manage). I needed to use the Mute Tool here so colour-coded the event I had been using.

I don’t know whether this use of the Mute Tool gets us anywhere. Anyway, I’ve ended up with a nice little project to do out of this so I’ll be giving this a proper road-test over the next few days and thought I’d leave it with you in the meantime.

Cheers,
C

[JHP]

@A.j.

After working with C6’s redesigned lanes for a couple weeks, I’m beginning to get it. It’s different, but - in many common situations, like vocal comping - it’s more efficient than the old way (IMO). Just takes getting used to.

I’ve also been able to use the lanes feature with more “complicated” comps where I create whole new arrangements by copying/pasting existing audio clips. It works - differently, but it works. [Although I do wish I could drag-copy audio clips onto a new lane (at the bottom). That should be fixed - otherwise, we’re forced to drop clips onto existing lanes which causes the lanes to shift, a visually jarring experience which many users will likely find confusing.]

However, there is one problem with this new system that REALLY worries me, and has kept me from using C6 thus far with paying clients. It’s so problematic, that I can’t believe it wasn’t addressed during C6’s internal design phase. Specifically, after I’ve completed comping a track (or group of tracks) with lanes, HOW DO I RECORD ADDITIONAL TAKE(S) WITHOUT INSTANTLY LOSING MY COMP (and all that hard work)?

[Edit for clarity’s sake: The audio takes themselves are not gone, rather the highlighted choices of which sections of audio I’ve carefully chosen for playback by clicking on them - e.g. the comp itself - are no longer visible).

Here’s a recent example:

I’ve finished comping a complicated set of drum takes. This kind of stuff can take hours… thankfully now with Group Edit, it’s easier - but it’s still often painstaking work. Before the client signs off on the drums, the drummer wants to try playing “just one last take!” before we settle on the final performance. I hit record, the drummer plays the tune one last time. When he’s done, MY ENTIRE COMP - which took hours to create - is GONE, replaced by the drummer’s new take at the bottom of the lanes. [Edit, again for clarity: Just to be clear - the earlier takes are still shown (they haven’t disappeared), rather they have all become transparent again. All evidence of the comp choices I made - that is, the comp work I did earlier by clicking on various audio segments in the various lanes - is gone.]

This is unusable for me. I need to be able to comp, record some more, comp those new takes, and then - perhaps - record more and comp again, all the while building and refining my comp. The old lanes behavior allowed this. C6 does not. And I simply cannot wait until all client recording is done before creating comps. It’s not how things work here in the real world with clients, where we often comp as we go (and then record again - as most engineers know, it’s often the process of comping that reveals what areas need to be re-recorded). Yes, I know there are workarounds- creating an entire set of new tracks for recording the post-comp takes sort of works. But that creates other frustrating problems, which aren’t even worth mentioning as they are obviously just workarounds.

Steinberg’s products have always been known for their industry-leading non-destructive editing. So this new lanes design - where recording a new take instantly removes the entire comp, with no undo available - is a real head scratcher. What say you, Steinberg? Every pro audio engineer I know works this way. I’d say this problem is a high priority to fix.

Aj

Hi Aj,
Here is a worklow suggestion regarding comp protection using “Events To Part”. Parts can be dissolved to events with “Dissolve Part”. Different Parts cannot be combined with “Evetns To Part” but can be glued together. In a part your comp is safe. By double clicking on a part you can change the comp inside it.

At a certain point I am comping comps but can always be sure that my original comps will remain if I glue the parts back together.

I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.

You can also use the “Bounce Selection” command to create one file and event out of a comp.

Gr,
JHP

[Crotchety]

Parts! Now why didn’t I think of that - use 'em all the time. Thanks JHP, looks useful.

[A.j]

Thanks for joining in here JHP, and thank you especially for taking the time to create that detailed animated .gif.

It’s busy here today, and I’ve only had a brief moment to check in with this (very active!) thread. When I get a breather later, I’ll try out these new ideas and report back. Helpful stuff…

Aj

[Kev_Vin]

Once again jhp to the rescue. Its posts like these that keep me coming back. Super informative.

Many thanks for the gif… No manual could’ve explained half as well.

One question. How does this translate to multiple track comping? More specifically can edits made in the part editor be 'grouped to other parts on grouped tracks?

[A.j]

@Kev Vin

One question. How does this translate to multiple track comping? More specifically can edits made in the part editor be 'grouped to other parts on grouped tracks?

Curious about this too…

[JBS]

Thanks JHP! I’ve been using Cubase for 6 years and never really understood the parts thing. So glad you made that gif and explained how to glue the parts to save comps. I just upgraded to CB6 to take advantage of group editing features but this thread made me nervous about re-tracking over comps (which I do all the time when tracking vocals). Now I know how to keep them safe! Awesome tip thanks again.

[alexis]

bookmarking.

[hkh]

@JHP

I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.

Messy workaround, doesent work for me…


The manual and auto - mode suggestion is a good one, that would fix this bug…
untill then I´m on v5

[system]

@hkh

@JHP

I would suggest to reproduce what I am doing in the gif to get the hang of the workflow and moves.

Messy workaround,

Yep - once again we have to do more work, in order to out-smart the new automatic features.

Parts are fantastic, don’t get me wrong, but maybe the following would work better as a long term solution: (?)

• If the audio track is empty when you record new audio, then the new event is made “active” (as now).
• If the track is not empty, then the new audio event is made “inactive”

You wouldn’t lose your comp (when when you copy an inactive part to a track with a comp on it, it doesn’t destroy it), plus you wouldn’t need to mess around with parts. Would that work in practice? Just an idea.

[system]

@Crotchety

Hey, FD, are you not suffering a C5 hangover there, mate? I’m familiar with what you describe. At first, I was very reluctant to cut up my pristine events but it was clearly going against the new regime to try and preserve this as I kept coming up with the problems you’re encountering.

Resistance is…confusing!

I think that you and I use audio tracks for different purposes That’s cool, I respect that
Sometimes, I do exactly what you describe and it works great!! It really rocks. I had lots of bass takes to comp just now and it made life much easier. I do use this “type” of track. But at least in equal measure I use audio tracks to play samples and FX, some short, some very long, some repeated bits, bits of delay bounces, vocal loops, chopped up madness… this audio is not multiple “takes” of the same thing in the traditional loop-recording sense. It’s not multiple attempts at a musical idea, so chop these up at identical points makes no sense whatsoever!

So I think until you have tried to use audio tracks for this type of thing then you won’t fully appreciate what the problem is… As for “resistance” - I welcome new features with open arms but I am a firm believer that a map should fit the terrain, not the other way round! When a mistake is made drawing a map, you shouldn’t then go and demolish a hill in order to make the map look “correct”. It wouldn’t matter to all map users, that occasional missing hill, but it matters to the hillwalkers! Can one size fit all? Of course not. This is not Soviet Russia (after all, in Soviet Russia, DAW comps YOU ) .

One size cannot fit all - we need options please Thanks for listening. Now flame at will…

[Conman]

I welcome new features with open arms but I am a firm believer that a map should fit the terrain, not the other way round! When a mistake is made drawing a map, you shouldn’t then go and demolish a hill in order to make the map look “correct”. It wouldn’t matter to all map users, that occasional missing hill, but it matters to the hillwalkers! Can one size fit all? Of course not. This is not Soviet Russia (after all, in Soviet Russia, DAW comps YOU

This sentence makes it look like you’re deliberately looking for problems that aren’t there. Come on. What’s all the raving about? Is this Soviet America? So sue them.
The problem here seems to have been resolved at least partly.

[Elektrobolt]

I wonder if a “Comp Preset” system would be possible?
(So that way you could create, store and recall different “choices” from the same set of recordings.)

Maybe that’s not possible because of the split/join functionality?