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Dorico
21

As someone who found Musescore very easy to use when I started with it, I downloaded a Dorico trial and did get stuck because I couldn’t really work out how to do anything. When I came back to it a few months later I looked up all the keyboard shortcuts for the things I spend most of my time doing and tried to write a piece for solo instrument so I didn’t have to worry about too many staves etc. I looked up how to do a few other things in the handbook and on Youtube and within a day I was up to speed.

I think the difference between the two apps is that on Musescore you draw what you want on the screen, whereas with Dorico you tell it what you want and it draws it for you, updating it as you go - maybe it’s because I’m much more keyboard-based on Dorico now but that’s what it feels like, and maybe why beginners find Musescore easier, it’s like painting with notes and dynamics etc.

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22

Hello chap
To put it crudely, getting started with Dorico is like flirting for a new boyfriend or girlfriend. You really have to invest a lot in the beginning, but you get an incredible amount back. In view of the fact that the work with Dorico amounts to a (hopefully) lifelong friendship, then the first four weeks, that this getting-to-know requires are simply peanuts. So keep on flirting and don’t give up … Besides - I’m a long-time Sibelius user and I really had problems with Dorico’s way of thinking in the beginning. But do you really want exclusively friends who think exactly the same as you?
By the way, there is still this and that that bothers me about Dorico, but I can be sure that these little things will be improved in the future.

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23

I tried version 1 and gave up. Ditto version 2, but when version 3 came out I migrated and have never looked back.

For comparison, when Finale first became available on Windows, I bought it, and stuck with it, because there was no alternative. Putting the work in rewards you in different ways if you take the long view.

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24

As a Dorico newbie, I can tell you that the “First Steps Part 1 & 2” videos on YouTube are getting me up to speed. Have you worked through the videos that the Dorico Team put a great amount of time and effort into producing to teach you Dorico? If you haven’t worked through the videos I mentioned, then you should, and no doubt, you will have your frustration cured and probably become a Dorico fan.

I’ve had Notion for years and in frustration went off and tried Sibelius and found it just as frustrating.

I’m now a Dorico user because of a video posted by a man who used Finale in college for 5 years and Sibelius professionally for 15 years writing arrangements and such where he explains why he switched to Dorico.

I’ve come to agree with all he had to say. From my and others experience, there’s not a notation software out there that’s more intuitive and easy and quick to use to get the job done than Dorico. And with seeing how it’s growing and being seriously developed by talented musicians and coders, I have great confidence that Dorico is the notation software that every Pro would love to use, if they only knew what they were missing.

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25

You weren’t writing in Basic before I was born. I was in writing in COBOL before you were writing in Basic. What does any of that prove? LOL Silly, meaningless comments. I refer you once again to the “First Steps Part 1 & 2” videos on YouTube. Do the work, get the rewards. Simple.

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26

just to say that i´m very happy with Dorico if you want to make a pool :wink:

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27

The idea that desktop software for a technical and creative activity like scoring music should be easy is a new one. I wonder why this is a thing now - never used to be, maybe because the new generation grows up with phones where the apps are so focused as to be dirt dumb stupid easy to use.

This gets back to Tantacruls infamous videos, his sole criteria is that ease of entry (not ease of use for experienced users) is the yardstick to measure this kind of software. I guess he did some usability work for games? Go figure, yes games have to playable without an instruction manual.

Anyhow as an experienced user I keep getting little endorphin hits as to how easy it is to write music with Dorico, like it’s never been before. And yeah took a bit of work on my part become experienced. Well you can’t have it both ways with software for such a complicated activity, both trivial to learn and trivial to use.

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28

Well, it took me nearly 30 years to become very adept with Finale (and I used it every single day for that time), and I still had to occasionally ask for help on how to do specific things, after that length of time.

Right now I’m writing directly into Dorico, and actually finding it charmingly easy compared to Finale. There’s absolutely no way I’m going to go back to Finale now.

I have yet to hear of ANY colleagues who have switched to Dorico then returning to their earlier program (whether it be Finale or Sibelius). So I highly doubt there is large turn-around of people taking up Dorico, then leaving it to return to previous software. That simply does not fit with my experience.

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29

Dorico is the only software I ever used where I needed the manual in the first 10 minutes. Unlike Cubase, I couldn’t figure out how to set up VSTs in Dorico without googling. This is probably why I find it so hard to relate to analogies with flirting, dating and being creative - mental states that are usually considered playful, effortless, exciting, and almost a kind of a “high”.

My experience was the opposite of that - a lot of frustration and anger. Similar to some others, I trialed Dorico since it first came out and gave up every time in despair. It was only when I decided to put any “playfulness” aside and spend a month “learning” Dorico that it eventually clicked and the “high” materialized. I wonder if the reason so many people are struggling in the beginning is just that - they come in with the mindset to be seduced, be playful and creative, but are immediately confronted with “my way or nothing” reality.

No idea if MuseScore really aims for ease of entry as a goal, but if so then I can see how Dorico, in contrast, might seem like it was conceived as the next generation software for meant for only professional engravers and where everything was subordinated to that objective. That’s how any kind of intuitive self-discovery might seem like an afterthought, or how functionality conceived later on might look like it had to be twisted to fit because it is an add-on to what is an ingenious and sophisticated engraving package. Perhaps simply accepting that would have been the least painful way forward for me, but I don’t think I really understood it at the time.

To come back to the OP, I agree - Dorico is not very usable (or enjoyable) without study, and it does require commitment, but…once that initial barrier is overcome, everything changes! It’s an incredible program that is worth every bit of effort invested into it, and more.

I personally experienced some of the things Daniel described in his post, including the moment I realized that things somehow “clicked” for me and that Dorico indeed “gets out of the way” allowing me to focus on the music.

I even cut and saved Ben’s post in this very forum where he explained the logic of creating sequential key commands - that was an entire milestone for me in understanding the logic Dorico uses. As this logic becomes more apparent, it just wins you over. Even the instrument hacks and the xml files have it…

While I have no background in engraving my conclusion is similar to others - I’m never going back to pen and paper. The barrier may be high, but the reward is so much higher. Dorico is an amazing program and it’s still young. I’m hoping for a major playback update in v.5 and in the meantime - yeah, now those endorphin hits just keep on coming… :wink:

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30

Oldest coder or notation user is not a contest that I want to win LOL. But we all seem to do the “I started way back with…” occasionally. The interesting thing to me is how “prior experience” might be the biggest reported issue.

I had reason to use Waveform 12 recently. I’m not making a direct comparison to Dorico, but it was another mental case for me of how I had to get over “how a DAW is supposed to work.” My initial reaction was that it was weird. Now I think it is possible to make an argument that the W12 UI is more flexible and efficient compared to some isomorphic DAWs.

Not that I expect anyone to actually WIN such an argument. :slight_smile: It does though for me represent an example of why I’m glad the Dorico team goes deeper than the UI to re-think underlying workflows, methods and processes. Waveform is pretty much a conventional DAW underneath the UI, so it is a learning experience with a somewhat marginal reward IMO.

I don’t think any of us would really want that in Dorico, were we to actually get it. Taking more time to “let go” and learn Dorico has had huge payday, for me at least.

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31

I really like your analogy.
When I was at university, I took a class in computer animation. We started with Cinema 4D, an application that came with a very “joyful” user interface. It had many icons where you could see what they are for, much interaction with the mouse. You could instantly add your first cube, select a side, extrude it, throw a shader at it and get your first rendered picture.
But this was only the first semester. Then we entered the world of “real” 3D software and started with Softimage|XSI. No icons anywhere, no clicky-colory-interface, mostly only text labels. The software was so much more powerful - but you needed to know what you wanted to do and what the thing you are looking for is called, otherwise XSI would really give you a hard time.

The only difference between my experience then and writing notes now is this: There are so many “simple” programs out there that can do simple writing-note-task that many people expect this to be an “easy entry” task.

Once you understand that Dorico is more like sophisticated 3D software and less like Microsoft Word, you are on the right track to success.

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32

3D software leaves me completely at a loss. Wings3D, Blender: I have no idea what’s going on, and have to start with the manual straightaway.

I’ve been using FontLab for a year or so. TBH, I get very frustrated with it, probably because I did just pile in and start a project, and then search/ask for information when I got stuck. (There’s also the business of learning what I’m supposed to be doing with it, even if I knew what it did.)

I really ought to sit down and just digest ‘the whole’ before I go any further; and I suspect that if I did that, I wouldn’t get so cross when I hit a brick wall.

I learnt Finale without recourse to a manual, in the days before online documentation was a thing. It took me over two years to learn how to enter anything other than rests in Speedy Entry. I’ve avoided that function for nearly 30 years as a result.

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33

Thanks for sharing that. I’m going to have to go look for that post! Do you happen to know the (approximate?) Title of that post?

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34

You mean the cursed MIDI input? :rofl: :rofl: I hear you :wink:

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I almost always have a look at the manual before buying a software package. Dorico was the exception: when I bought it there was no manual and one relied on Daniel’s blogs, Version Histories, and more experienced users (likely beta testers) and Team members posting on the forum.

And COBOL?!
Hah!
I was using pencil and paper to do my math homework years before COBOL arrived.
(Talk about non-intuitive!)
:joy: :smiling_imp:

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36

Here we go. I think Ben expanded on this in one or two posts since then.

Of course, everyone processes things differently and it will never replace the manual. But for me personally that post and a couple of other ideas and suggestions somehow turned into illuminating insights along the way that were a huge help. In some strange way they also gave me additional motivation or nudge towards Dorico (I don’t really know how to articulate this!).

There were other things from Ben, Todd/Fred, Brian, Daniel himself, Lilly and several others that I consider my lightbulb moments. (A bit of topic, but I do wish sometimes there was a possibility for users to summarize these tips and discoveries in separate posts that the moderators would consider making into stickies).

To reiterate for the OP, any investment I made into setting things aside to learn Dorico, I already got back many times over. Stick with it, because it’s really worth it.

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37

Thank you, that’s a very helpful reply.

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Hi @Skipoffwork - can’t answer your question, but all I’ll say is, do take him up on his very generous offer of a phone call/Zoom session; it can’t get better.! You’ll be in friendly one-to-one conversation with Steinberg’s head of product marketing for Dorico. Its obvious there’s a keen desire to hear the actual nature of your frustrations, first hand.

FWIW, I’ve no doubt as a result, both will learn, and both will ‘win’.

I mean, maybe, it’ll convince you how Dorico isn’t for you after all. Maybe, it’ll give you pause for thought on the power/potential of the tool (or supporting materials) in many beneficial ways to you, not made apparent thus far…

I’ll leave it there.

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39

Thank you, EB! You have some good ideas and I agree wholeheartedly in investing time educating oneself.

I’m working on a Keyboard Shortcuts for Dorico document in Apple Pages, starting at Page 1 of the Documentation and I’m up to page 170 now.

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Interesting, I gave up on Blender years ago but when 2.8 rolled around with the UI improvements took to it like a duck to water. Up to character/mob creation now. Like music it just took practice and I rarely use the manual, as it’s too focused to help with a real world problem. YouTube was a help there as people illustrate making XYZ which involves a ton of steps.

But learning Blender is a million times harder than Dorico, as the scope of what it does is so much greater (mats, meshes, ops, rendering, compositing, animating …)

I’ve been using FontLab for a year or so. TBH, I get very frustrated with it, probably because I did just pile in and start a project, and then search/ask for information when I got stuck. (There’s also the business of learning what I’m supposed to be doing with it, even if I knew what it did.)

When I get more time one of these days I’m going to update my license to last year (dark mode!) and dig deeper. Wasn’t hard to learn, the hard part is learning font design, like Blender training your mind to see I think.