I will confess I’m proud of myself for getting up to speed with Dorico as fast as I have, primarily through 1) the amazing tutorials, 2) this terrific forum, and 3) Google’s AI summaries for my search queries. BUT…
I am less proud of myself for still being confused about the way adding and deleting pages is done in Dorico. I should say I can usually figure out how to make what I want happen, but conceptually, can someone explain why a new page is added as a “page override” to an existing page? I.e., what is it that I’m “overriding” on the existing page that results in the creation of a new page?
And then, if I want to delete the new page, why do I delete that new page’s “page override,” when the very existence of that new page is itself an override of the page before or after it? How can a page’s existence be considered an override… of itself?
I know that it sounds like I’m workshopping a stand-up routine for a VERY niche audience. But I honestly think understanding this concept will help me be less confused.
An override is a change you have made (in Engrave) to a page’s template components. Usually someone has added or moved a text box.
(Yes, it would be nice if there was a way to see what the override(s) are)
I will try to explain so as I have understood it (sorry if this is not clear, or correct):
Normal situation:
Dorico creates pages automatically, if there is not enough space to accommodate the music on the current page/s (for example when you add a bunch of bars in a flow, and so the flow needs more space to exist). I think the logical procedure is: Dorico actually creates new Music Frame/s to let the music flow further, when the space in the actual music frame is full; and these Music Frame/s need new pages to exist, so that new pages will be added automatically as needed by the quantity of music (for the whole flow). And this doesn’t create overrides.
General concept:
The page override (red triangle) means “this page is not following any page template”. And this for different reasons, but the common reason is: you are forcing a change (in this case a new page), so overriding the automatically page creation for that particular page, and the new page will not follow any template since you forced its “existence” and Dorico respects this decision, just warning you with the red triangle.
Case A.
When you create a new page not based on a Page Template, the new page will be an override, since the new page is blank (and this is obvious): you are forcing a new Page, that would not be necessary to accommodate the current amount of music (it also couldn’t because it doesn’t contain any music frame), and which is not automatically created as I explained at the beginning. And this new page doesn’t follow any Page template, so the red triangle.
Case B.
But also if you create a new page based on a Page Template (for example the Default page template), you are also forcing a new page that (probably) is not necessary considered the current amount of the music. Dorico will create the new page with exactly the same frames as in the Default Page Template. But this page is not using the Default Page Template: is only based on it (as a duplicate). So the override appears to tell you: "this page, even if has the same structure as the Default page template, and even if the music flows in its Music frame, which is probably an MA chain, is not using the template himself.
I don’t think this is entirely true. (Well, maybe it is, but I might use a different description.) The new page follows the template the same way as any normal page with overrides.
If I insert a new page and use the Default template, it looks exactly like any other Default page. If I edit the Default template and change the text in the page header, that change reflects on the inserted page just as it does on other pages. But if I edit the Default template and move the music frame, that change is not reflected on the inserted page.
This is exactly what happens if I edit an existing page directly, by (for example) adding a graphic frame. If I then edit the template and add text to an existing frame, the edited page picks up this change, but if I make changes to frames themselves, the edited page does not pick up the change.
But yes, I think it can be a little hard to wrap your head around.
Interesting observation Aaron.
But I think that this is not a “follow the template” behaviour, but rather a “follow the content of that particular linked frame”.
I try to clarify:
when creating a New Page (or even a new Page Template) based on an existing Page template, notoriously the frames of the duplicate will be internally connected/linked to their original frames (they have the same ID, sort of), so that the changes in one are mirrored by all frames that are derived from it. This happens even if the page has overrides. That means for me, that the frames are following the changes because they are connected by their ID (or something similar) to their original frames. But the page as a whole doesn’t follow a Template, but merely the frames follow the informations contained in their linked frames. A very subtle difference, I admit.
(Those are just my thoughts and may be totally wrong )
If one wants a page to look different, the best approach is to create a new page template (possibly similar to the old one( and then apply the new page template to the page in question.
If one simple wants to add measures somewhere in the music, then the best option is simply to insert the music where needed and let Dorico take care of the page formatting.
Of course a combination of these things may be needed.
Wow, thanks everyone for all the info! I knew some of it already, got some new stuff, and am still a bit confused. I will spend some time digesting everything here and ask follow-ups if they seem warranted. IN THE MEANTIME, though:
Does anyone agree that it would be great we could access some details about particular page overrides beyond a red triangle telling us that one exists, PARTICULARLY those overrides that have the impact of creating new blank pages? E.g., “this override created the preceding blank page,” or “this override involved changed margins,” etc.
Regardless of how they were created, would anyone else appreciate the ability to delete a blank page directly, without having to figure out which other page’s override it is tied to?
To delete the page I inserted, I just remove the override on that (blank) page 2. I don’t see anything about “which other page’s override it is tied to”.
And another data point enters my brain! Thanks. Nevertheless… I still find the nomenclature misleading. How can the continued existence of that new inserted p.2 depend on an “override” of… p.2 itself? If you remove the page override from p.2, the whole page disappears. Or should I be thinking of a “page override” more like an “override of the automatic page sequencing,” rather than something that is a property of the particular page that has the red triangle?
I agree that it’s a little confusing. I think of it not as “page 2 is an override” but as “page 2 has an override”. The override, in a sense, is that I’ve told Dorico not to apply the usual template to that page. Removing the override tells Dorico to return to business as usual, and the content from page 3 slides back onto page 2.
(This assumes that the page I inserted was not based on a template – a blank page. If I insert a page based on First or Default, then the page has a music frame, and the musical content stays on that page. In that case, it’s likely that the actual page count for the layout never changes. In a sense, “Insert Pages” is really “Apply Page Overrides”, and actually inserting a page is just a side effect of applying a page override that’s not based on a template.)
Of course, all of us who have commented thus far are just other users, with no special knowledge about Dorico’s internals. We’re just basing our comments on our observations and interpretations.
If one wants page two to be blank, one should apply a blank template to it rather than insert a (blank) page. The music would move to the next page, but page two would have a template change rather than an override.
Actually, that’s helpful, thanks. Basically what you’re saying is “the page that is the second one in the document should be blank,” and everything after that moves a page later. Then by “removing the page override” you’re essentially saying, “the default sequence of pages should be restored.”
Whether the page should be blank or something else is up to you. I am only suggesting the best way I have found to make that change, one that avoids page overrides.
Haha—in looking at what I wrote, I totally see why you replied with that! What I meant is… actually, I’m not sure what I meant, but for some reason what you said made the concept click for me, at least a bit better: the default template is what Dorico uses to create pages automatically when new ones are needed by the music. If you create a new page, you are “overriding” that automatic new page creation system, thus you must tell Dorico what to do with that page. So in that sense, the automatic creation of pages is what’s being overridden. This thought is probably most useful for me as an internal insight.
Set up a blank page template, make a page template change to include it in page 2 of your project and tell it to last just for one page.
No need for overrides.
Your blank page doesn’t need to actually be blank of course. You can add some text to the ‘blank’ page template saying ‘this page intentionally blank’ or whatever takes your fancy, and if you need to change that, you can change it once (on the page template) and all pages using it will be updated automatically.
I realize it’s confusing. But I’m going to push back on this a bit. If I create a blank page before page 5, a blank page is added at page 4. That brand new page is now shown as having an override. And the override of page 4 does not consist of the fact that I’ve tweaked something on page 4 (which is what most page overrides are), but that I have brought that new blank page into existence. How can the creation of a new page be considered to be an override of that same new page? And if I remove the “I gave birth to you” override on that new page, the page disappears. That’s why I consider that, in this instance, it is the automatic sequence of page creation that has been overridden.
The bottom line for me is that I think the nomenclature is confusing for this use case, and that there should be some other word for the result of doing an “insert page(s)” command than calling it a “page override.”
Regardless, that’s why I’m very happy with Derrek’s tip about creating page templates using an “insert page template” change. That way, when I look at all the red triangles on the pages pane of Engrave mode, I’ll only see indications for pages where I’ve changed something from whatever template originally governed that page.
Forget for a minute what the words on the menu items say. The way I look at it is that you’ve told Dorico to take page 4, which is a normal page with music, and disconnect it from its template. That’s the override. What then happens is that the music that was on page 4 flows into the next templated page, which is page 5. And as a result of everything reflowing, you wind up with a new page at the end of the layout.
The fact that the layout is now a page longer is a side effect of overriding page 4. When you remove the override, connecting page 4 back to its template, the music reflows again, and the page at the end disappears.
In other words, you have to keep in mind that the music is not inherently connected to the page, and overriding the page makes the music flow around the override.
That’s helpful, thanks. I think you and I are saying something very similar—I haven’t added a “new” page before page 5, I’ve changed what would automatically happen at page 4, shifting everything a page later. I do think that the term “page override” is a bit confusing in this instance, but I do now understand what’s going on with the two processes (“insert blank page” and “insert page template change”). And for that, thank you to you and everyone who weighed in on this thread!
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