OK, thanks.
then this is a case where Dorico should allow the user to manually insert the change where it belongs, rather than at the 1st note of the new instrument.
I notice that it inserts the “to new instrument” text in completely the wrong place as well.
In my case, my piccolo finishes playing in the early part of the measure, the rest of that bar is rests. the “to flute 2” should appear IN that measure, above those rests, not on the next system, and especially NOT in a staff already called “flute 2”. (speaking of my file, without manually condensing the 2 flutes into one staff, Dorico, by default, puts in two staves of music, flute 1, and flute 2. But erroneously insert the “to flute 2” text on the 2nd flute’s staff.)
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In my opinion this is an area that needs attention ASAP.
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there’s another odd thing about Dorico’s behaviour with this issue.
it immediately switches to the 2nd flute staff after the piccolo stops playing.
but if Dorico sees those empty measures as belonging to the piccolo, shouldn’t they then be called “piccolo” instead of “flute 2”?
there’s obviously some sort of inconsistency in the logic here.
In general, Dorico does switch to the new instrument immediately after the last note in the old instrument (typically, at the following barline). It only switches mid-bar if the new instrument’s first note is in the same bar as the old instrument’s last note, which is unusual (except perhaps in percussion).
then there’s something I’m not understanding.
let’s say on system one piccolo plays until the 2nd last measure.
there’s an entire empty measure of rest remaining for that instrument in the system.
new system, now the piccolo has changed to a flute, however, there are no actual flute notes until two systems further.
Dorico IS showing system two as consisting of two flute parts, and not one flute and one piccolo.
So why isn’t it letting me condense that system of two flutes onto one staff?
see the example I posted in my thread:
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more fiddling around with this file…
if I add a note in flute two, at measure 4 beat one, the two flute staves condense.
IF I move that flute note over by one single beat, the staves un-condense.
no matter where I place that note elsewhere in that staff, the staves will not condense.
But they do if the 1st note in flute 2 is on beat 1 of the very first measure.
However, the “to flute” of the piccolo part also disappears when the staves condense.
If the note in flute two is moved over one beat, the staves separate (no longer condensed) and the “to flute” text reappears, again, in the wrong place: on beat one of measure 4.
Why doesn’t the “to flute” text, which applies to the piccolo part, appear on the piccolo staff, on the rests in measure 3?
I’m sorry for being dense, but none of this makes sense to me.
I’m thinking like someone who is engraving music, with the logic of a musical score.
I’d rather Dorico didn’t impose its computer thinking on my musical thinking.
This seems like a rather basic function for a program that condenses on the fly and makes all sorts of calculations to get the best results.
I don’t think I should have to resort to cludges or work-arounds to achieve what is, in essence, a very basic concept in music layout.
condensing issue.dorico (1.3 MB)
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Please could you stick to one thread?
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considering this is the same issue, I felt it might not be inappropriate to participate.
In that case let me point out here that you have a solution for showing the slurs correctly on page 2, so there’s no need for other users to waste time attempting to find solutions for the file you’ve posted on this thread.
your solution/answer came after I posted it. sorry.
I’ve edited out my comments about the slurs.
Why doesn’t the “to flute” text, which applies to the piccolo part, appear on the piccolo staff, on the rests in measure 3?
I think this is partially a case of “this is how Gould does it”. The example on Gould page 532 shows that she puts the “To Instrumentname” warning text at the beginning of the next full bar of rest, rather than immediately following the end of a phrase in the same bar.
so another thing about Gould that I disagree with.
Gould, however, does say “place the instruction as far in advance of the entry as possible, i.e.at the first available rest.” (page 559, “Labelling < sic> instrument changes”)
The examples where the instruction appear at the first full measure also involve key signature changes, as well as an extremely short rest at the end of the previous bar.
This is one place where there is room for improvement in Dorico.
An engraving option would be good to have the instrument labels for instrument changes appear either at the first available rest, OR at the first full bar.
When working on a score with no key signatures, there is often, if not always, room to place the instrument change label immediately after the last note of a phrase.
I find myself with a measure in 6/4, and an 8th note tied from a previous measure. So basically 5½ beats of rest where the instrument label could easily be placed.
It’s frustrating having Dorico insist that the instrument label wait until the next full measure.
I think this is one area where Gould is simply wrong, and is at odds with how this is typically handled. This is certainly not how it’s handled in jazz and current musical theater work. It’s not even internally consistent with her logic in other areas of the book.
Gould on page 9 says, “Where there needs to be a change from the more standard clef, retain this clef until the barline before the next entry. This placing alerts the performer to the change at the relevant point (i.e. at the entry), and not further back before a group of rests, where it may be overlooked.” Sounds like good advice that I imagine most of us would agree with.
Let’s take the odd double of Violin and Trombone, like played by Lewis Kahn (RIP), with whom I did hundreds of gigs. So which is it for him when switching between bass and treble clef? As both are concert instruments, should the clef change be “as far in advance of the entry as possible” like on page 559? Or should it be “the barline before the next entry … at the relevant point (i.e. at the entry), and not further back before a group of rests, where it may be overlooked” like on page 9?
If it’s important to place the clef change where it won’t be overlooked, why is it not important to place a key sig change where it won’t be overlooked as well for a player who is switching from Flute to Alto Sax? IMO, a “late” instrument change is clearly preferable for exactly the same reasons she gives for “late” clef changes.
Yep, and even better would be the ability to completely customize the switch point separately between parts and score to allow for cues, staff labelling, etc.
Fred, let’s be careful to not confuse two things here.
I’m not referring to the clef change, but to the placement of the textual instrument label “to new instrument”.
That clarified, however, I am in COMPLETE agreement with you as far as clef changes are concerned with instrument changes.
For example, it’s frustrating to see half of a system on glockenspiel, then at the very first measure of rest, halfway through that system, the treble clef changes to a percussion clef, simply because that percussionist now plays a snare drum 5 pages later.
This would require the ability to have clef and instrument changes be at different positions (score/part) so that they are ideally placed.
A new clef does NOT need to be placed immediately.
However, the text indication “to new instrument” DOES need to be placed as soon as possible.
Right now, Dorico is placing the former much too far in advance, and is placing the latter too late in relation to the previous instrument.
- The name of the “to” instrument should appear immediately at the first rest after the last note by the old instrument, which is NOT necessarily at the first complete bar.
- The clef change itself should appear in an unobtrusive spot, preferably at the beginning of a system when there is a long pause between the last note and the next note.
I know, I was just referring to her logic regarding clef changes. If it’s logical for a clef change to be placed conspicuously where it won’t overlooked, why doesn’t that same logic hold for a key change when a player changes transposing instruments? Instead she, and Dorico, places it “early” where it might be easily overlooked.
I would be happy with this as a default.
I think this emphasizes the need for some custom controls between parts and score. It should be inconspicuous in the score and be at a logical place, but should be conspicuous in the part to alert the player that something is different in case they spaced out and missed the “to” indication.
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It would be great if this could be high on the priority list! It’s particularly frustrating with natural horns, as different pairs of crooks have to either be considered as different players (with a custom part layout) or I have to cope with no horn condensing in the whole score to avoid inconsistency.
Welcome to the forum, Robin. Indeed, we know that this can be a serious limitation for some projects, and we do indeed plan to resolve it as soon as we can.
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I’m not entirely sure if this falls under the purview of this topic, but I found it as I am wondering how to condense a Piccolo with my flutes where the Picc only appears for a few measures, doubling with Flute 1.
My workaround for this has been to actually not have the flute player “hold” the piccolo, but rather create a separate piccolo player and then manually hide that staff; and then double that music onto the flute staff, suppress its playback, and use manual staff text to label which player is holding what:
And the staff labels which I manually renamed:
Of course there is the complication of Picc. being an octave higher, but I think in the interest of space in my case it can be understood when reading Picc (or I can write an 8va line if necessary, or Treble Clef 8 above).
I don’t know if this is the right way to engrave it or the best strategy, but for a mere 2 measures of a doubling instrument, it helps me save space. I would love if there was a more automated way to force condensing of doubling instruments held by one player, with some method of labelling (and showing clef transposition when necessary).