Interesting statement. I would really like to know why Logic Pro doesn’t use the gpu cores when Cubase can.
Steinberg seems to have an advantage on Cubase when it comes to utilizing gpu and cpu cores.
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Forum user @Nico5 here has a blog about building a new music PC and I agree with all of the main points. Long story short, I just built a mid-range “enthusiast” PC with some updated components, the rationale remains the same. It’s essentially a gamer rig, without the games.
AMD Ryzen 7 9700X (65W TDP)
GIGABYTE X870E AORUS ELITE WIFI7
Gigabyte GeForce RTX 5060 Ti Eagle 16GB
SAMSUNG 990 EVO Plus SSD 1TB, PCIe Gen 4x4, Gen 5x2 M.2 2280
CORSAIR Vengeance DDR5-6000 RAM CMK32GX5M2B6000C36
Total cost in USD was about $1,800, but could have been as low as about $1,000 with less RAM and by reusing parts from my old rig (not possible in this case due to the time it would have taken to get everything back up and running).
My main motivation was not SpectraLayers AI acceleration (that was already working fine on my Windows 10 with a Palit RTX 3050 6GB fanless GPU), but the planned obsolescence of that perfectly good hardware enforced by Microsoft, something Apple users must be very familiar with.
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Thanks.
Just in case you interested, saying that “Apple restricts coding of their OS” (well, what I think you mean by that because they obviously won’t let you code their OS, nor does Windows) isn’t accurate.
Right now - today - the developers could indeed write in full Apple Metal GPU support into their code. Right now. The “restrictions,” which of course there are, regard MacOS generally not allowing 3rd parties to write their own drivers. Yes, older DriverKit support exists for custom kexts as anyone running UAD or RME devices will tell you. But there is no public code reference for “driver-kit-like” development of Apple Silicon GPU.
So while Nvidia can “force” anyone who wants to use their GPUs to use their own Windows drivers (which they do) in this case Apple won’t let you install a 3rd party kernel driver for GPU at all. Well, you COULD if you’ve already reduced system security (e.g. UAD/RME again) but no one has access to the code to allow them to write it.
From a code perspective in terms of reliability, performance, compatibility, and as you say “optimization,” this is actually how you get there. It’s “better.” The challenge is that it’s not as easy as just using 3rd party libraries to perform direct GPU operations.
And I agree with you - I would love to be able to plug in a Thunderbolt eGPU box and point to it on MacOS and say “use that.” I’d buy one today (as discussed in a similar thread). But we can’t, and that’s why. MacOS users are in the same boat with apps like TouchDesigner, which is remarkable, but “limited” on MacOS for the same reason.
Now, I don’t have the slightest idea of what the difference in scope is between the two coding models for an app like SB - not a Scooby. But my presumption is that it is not only significant, but that it is also “different.” If you could envision Nvidia writing their own OS, and doing away with CUDA completely, it would be transformative in the industry, right? It would remove the “burden” of 3rd party drivers, right? Well, that’s what Apple has done. And I think it’s pretty remarkable.
Where this affects us is that it comes at a cost for the developer, and I’m betting it’s non-trivial. The only reason I even bother writing all this is that it’s not “Apple’s fault.” It’s not Robin’s “fault.” It’s where we are in the industry and we’re in the middle of a transformation.
It’s really OUR fault, because we complain about spending $70 for an app like SL which is voodoo-effing-magic, and when some stuff breaks we lose our collective minds and sharpen our pitch-forks, fire up the torches, and march on Headquarters demanding back the equivalent of what we spend on coffee in a week.
If everyone who has viewed this thread put $1000 into Robin’s Apple GPU Fund, that might move the needle, and we’d see something in some indeterminate timeframe. But $70 a year is not going to see that happen.
Anyway, writing to Apple won’t change anything. The market will drive this development, and not technology. I’m currently one of the pain-point people, but nothing like others here. I think the reality is that it’s our responsibility to perform our due diligence in solution provisioning. My long, probably TLNR opinion, anyway.
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deleted because 
Robin and Steinberg should NOT have released this software knowing it was broken. You can’t blame Apple for that, they didn’t make SL12. Steinberg should have kept this as a Windows-only release until the issues were fixed.
If Logic can unmix a track in one tenth of the time, then the problem is with SL12, not the system. If you’re charging for an update, it’s your job to make sure it works. Saying you’ve complained to Apple and they haven’t replied is not an excuse, it’s pathetic.
DEMUCS GUI isn’t taking half an hour to unmix a track. SL12 is. They released and charged for something they knew was defective. That’s not just bad, it’s unacceptable.
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Hahahaha - I saw you thought to make some edits, and then POOF. Been there myself. I will say you had some “interesting” points there!!
At least with WL the charged updates aren’t every 12 months without fail and you may get some FREE feature updates before you have to pay again. There’s NEVER been a X.1 update in the last SIX years of SL releases.
11.0.70
10.0.50
9.0.20
8.0.20
7.0.30
6.0.30
I uninstalled SL12. It is unusable on Apple Silicon. SL11 is like 4 or 5 times faster.
This should never have been released like this. Steinberg should reimburse all Mac users.
For demixing to stems I just began to use the latest Logic. It works better and much faster.
Unfortunately you’re wrong.
Steinberg go to multiple decimal places being V.0.x (eg 11.0.70) the .0.70 release is just another bug fixe for V11.0.
There are no free feature updates after release.
Wavelab 11 went up to 11.2 and cubase//nuendo also get v.1 or v.2 (or higher) releases. AS WELL as bug fixes.
SL has ONLY ever had v.0.xx bug fixes.
The facts speak from themselves. The program hasn’t had better stem separation or any other improvements in what the software does between releases. A bug fix is not an improvement if it simply takes you to where it should have been if it’d been tested properly or not rushed out on all platforms (specifically Mx MAC). IF stem separation hadn’t stepped backwards in speed by a ridiculous amount, you can’t then go on and claim the bug fix is xx times faster.
It’s clear Windows ARM (for all 3 potential users worldwide) is where this year’s “testing” went. While MACs may only be a small % of all computers sold year on year the % of those used to make music is equally disproportionate compared to Windows.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a 35 year windows fanboy (Started using SADiE for CD mastering and restoration on windows 3.x) but had to start the move to a Mac to make music in December just so I could easily take my machine to another studio and work. My main mastering (Sequoia) and restoration (CEDAR) machine is still a 16core, 32 thread AMD based Windows Desktop and that still beats the latest MAC studio Ultra in Cinebench.
I’m just annoyed that they thought they could get away with this (again) and treat paying customers with this short sightedness. It shows a total lack of respect and shouldn’t be tolerated and definitely must not go unchallenged.
I’m happy to be a beta tester but not if I’m expected to pay for the privilege and only if its with prior agreement.
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Oh…I hate seeing this… I haven’t been able to use SL 12 yet, but I did buy it, and I’ve also uninstalled 11. I’ve been a Cubase user for a long time. I’ve been using C14 since day 1, and I’m getting terrible errors. I have to go back to 13 for certain tasks.
I have Absolute 6.
I bought WaveLab 12 (I’m coming from Elements).
Every day I feel like I’ve wasted my money on this company. Every time I log on to the forum, I get more discouraged. I don’t blame them. I know that you, who use the software every day like me, ARE the ones who are right. It’s too late to complain now…
I should have learned another DAW back in the day (and I know they all have their flaws). Steinberg’s recent work is a real disgrace.
I disagree. In my experience, Steinberg software works fine, and I’m very happy with all of their products.
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Since I made the original post, can we please stay on topic? I am not trying to bash the software. It’s without a doubt the best stem splitter out there that I’ve tried.
Can we hear from other mac users? We already know that it works great on windows. Is this a M4 mac issue? Does the slowed operation happen on M3 or M2 or M1 macs? I guess I can try on my m3 macbook air, or the other one at my main studio, which is an M2 mac mini pro. I believe that I can only use on two machines right?
No need for mac/windows contest. Or steiney hatefest. I’ve had my share of problems with steinberg’s years of crashing. SL doesn’t crash. It’s been stable. The only question that I’ve had is why is it slower? That’s it. Let’s figure this one out. Thanks
PS My guess is that this is a long weekend for some of the people working this situation.
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On my Studio M3 Ultra (32/80) with 512gig RAM, I unmixed:
Paul Baule - Abyssal (Original Mix)
08:33.15
44k, 16bit
With identical device settings, on High, and specifically selecting Vocals, Drums,Bass, Piano, and Other (just to use non-defaults) the render time was:
SL12Pro - 09:45
SL11Pro - 02:03
SL11Pro was almost 1/5 the time. However, isolating the bass, SP12P’s unmix is remarkable. Solo’d playback is like listening to a solo bass player. No artifacts, no bleed from the drums, nothing. I thought SL11P was good, but I will stand by my (albeit subjective) term of “remarkable.”
The audio is clear and tight, with clear amplitude consistency around 63Hz, 126Hz, and 168Hz as illustrated in this spectrogram snip:
Juxtaposed against SL11P which you can clearly hear introductory artifacts, drum track leak, and general noise with long higher frequency peaks near 3k, with higher bands of wider deltas clearly visible:
The quality difference is significant between the two. In my opinion, and for my purposes, I would gladly wait an extra 7, or even 15 minutes if this result is consistent. As in, not even thinking twice about it. No client would ever dispute the quality difference heard in this test.
Of course, YMMV, and your projects could be very different than this single, unscientific test - I would suggest thoroughly testing it on multiple tracks and going from there. Of course, unmixing is just scratching the surface, but I wanted to at least share my Mac experience since you asked I’ll do the same test on my MBP M3 Max (with others) over the next few days as well. Cheers.
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Finally had a chance to try out SL12 and must say, not as impressed with this update compared to previous versions.
Tried out Unmix Song on a 4min track to compare it against Logic.
Logic took 14 secs to unmix, while SL12 on the highest setting took around 7mins on a M4 Max with 64GB RAM. This would have been fine if there was a vast difference in quality, but sad to say Logic’s separation was much cleaner. The guitar stem in SL12 had some synths and fx creep in, while Logic cleanly pulled out only guitars. Similarly for an 808 Bass line, Logic extracted with the transient, while SL12 only extracted the decay/sub bass part.
I really hope we don’t have to wait for the next version update for all this to be fixed/improved.
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You can request a refund for any Steinberg product within 14 days after the purchase.
I’ve submitted a ticket, raising a formal complaint, detailed why, fair and reasonably (it always pays to give as much detail as possible). Anyone can submit a ticket here too https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/115001765050-Contact-support
I don’t need a refund; I just want a product that allows me to work. I know fixes are on the way. In the case of SL, I don’t mind waiting, and if I have to wait, I’ll do it with SL11, just like I have been doing up until now. Steinberg will always be “my home,” but that doesn’t justify not doing things the best way possible. A forum full of complaining people isn’t good for any company.
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The same track I mentioned above took about 1:10 on Logic, but that was on my MBP M3 Max 16[12p/4e]/40 CPU/GPU with 128gig.
Logic actually did a decent job on this track, though the bass was not as clean deeper into the song - lots of bleed from synths and drums. It’s better than SL11, but not as good as SL12 (again, this particular track)
Of course, Logic (cough) makes full use of the GPU (cough) so that really helps:
Obviously a very different product, but it’s a fair comparison I think both from a base-feature competitive perspective and a clear indicator of what kind of performance we could potentially see from a properly implemented Metal integration. And of course with Logic you’re immediately prepped to use the stems in your project. Again, different apps and different scope, but your point is well taken.
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