Is there a way to set delay for multiple outputs individually inside Cubase?

[JohnShin]

So, I am planning on setting mix-through Summing mixer setup.

I noticed, by having a test that, analog out v. Adat out (Cranborne 500adat) have slightly different timing issue (latency).

So the thing is, I cannot adjust it after the recording because I will be mixing through analog-sum box. Neve 5057 Orbit.

So I have, analog output 5-6, 7-8 + Adat converter analog output 2 ~ 8 channels patching/feeding into the 5057 orbit summing mixer.

I will get sum back into Analog input of RME ufx ii.

So because of I don’t want slight phase issue and stereo field issue right from the start, I need to send it with right amount of delay applied (permanenetly)?

So, that means, I am using 2 separate converters that have different timing latency, what would be the most convenient way of setting it right? So the summing mixer receives it right on perfect time for ‘all’ channels being fed in?

I see record adjust option there, but um my case is slightly different

[Martin.Jirsak]

Hi,

You can set the Delay in the Audio Connections > External Effects window.

[JohnShin]

Hello Thank you so much, I am searching about that, and I watched one video of youtuber making bus as FX channel and doing that so, for each pair of channel to neve 5057 analog summing.

That FX channel can be set with dedicated analog channels or adat etc, then it does have what you have described, delay ←

And then he insert that fx channel to the bus…?

This is something very new to me.

So, that means I can use ‘insert’ as sending the signal to the analog summing mixer channel? (and patch the correct outputs to feed the summing mixer)

And, that delay calculation would make it perfect to sync and sum correctly for return recording…?

Thanks.

RND 5057 Orbit en périphérique externe dans Cubase !

Is there any unofficial video link so I can learn this feature? I have never used this feature before unfortunately…

I’ve been manually, sending bus to ADAT 3-4/ ANALOG 3-4 etc and manually, sort the time delays and make it sync with 3rd party plugin haha… (Voxengo sound delay)… Oh man, I am so behind.

[djpat]

This is a longtime gap in cubase functionality that still hasnt been addressed. I dont know how many times i have requested this when i get surveys but it still hasnt happened.

To accurately setup an external mixer / summing box, you need to create external fx channels (mono or stereo) for each audio output you will be using.

This is the crazy part: you then need to add the audio input channels that you have routed your mixer to one by one to each fx channel and have cubase measure the ping time. Then set the input to no bus. And do the next channel. Until you have a delay time for all of them listed. This is much more laborious under C14. You used to be able to do ping time from audio connections window but now you have to insert that external effect on a mixer channel and then measure ping time.

Once all are done, you have to setup an audio input bus that actual feeds the output from the mixer, otherwise changing the volume/pan/mute might accidentally impact your whole mix.

If you add an insert effect outside of the box on one of your channels you will have to redo the ping step.

The other problem with this is that you will get no meter levels on your fx tracks unless you set to prefader metering and that is a global setting for the whole mixer. I generall create a group track for each channel and then send that to the fx track so i can monitor the levels before they go outboard.

Steinberg has all of the code written to create an outboard mixer type audio device but so far they havent done so.

[JohnShin]

Right right, I see, some were having frustration I totally get that part! haha…
So, I just got 5057 orbit, so you are saying,
I ‘can’ mix through orbit in real-time…? as many plugins as I put, the busses will be on sync right…? as long as I timed the latency ping for each bus?

e.g.

1. DRUM bus - 3-4 (ufx ii)
2. BASS bus - 5-6 (ufx ii)
3. MUSIC bus 7-8 (ufx ii)
4. Lead VOX - 3-4 (cranborne 500adat direct outs)
5. FX bus - 5-6 (cranborne 500adat direct outs)
6. BG bus - cranborne 500adat direct outs)

feeding into 5057 orbit, sum master out, coming back into my ufx ii analog inputs 1-2.

So, I am not treating this as the last step of the mix before mastering, ‘but’ trying to mix through this setup, with ongoing increase number of 3rd party plugins such as fabfilter, softube compressors etc…?

That ‘ping’ you have mentioned would stay intact and accurately sync all different busses right…?

What do you mean by, I need to ping again…?
As long as all busses are playing correctly I can work with that, but lets say, if DRUM bus lags 10 samples, but then BASS bus lags 1000 samples, then I cannot work with that you know? haha this part I am worrying about… what is the verdict on this? haha… I hope it works huh…

[djpat]

If you get Cubase to calculate the delay for each channel then you should be fine.

It doesn’t appear as though the 5057 has channel specific sends on it but if you alter anything in the signal chain after you have calculated the delays, you will have to recalculate them.

[JohnShin]

Right! So, there is only two things I can do (lol)…

1. Mono-ing 1/2 or 3/4 or 5/6 or 7/8
2. Texture parallel processing of ‘silk’ with rotary knob
3. Oh, and master trim knob

These are it.

So, I wouldn’t think there would be any added latency to this huh?

I get your point, it can be frusrating, but I will just do what I have to do? get the ‘pings’ for all stem busses and try to work with it aye…

I will give it a go and get back to it.

[JohnShin]

jdpat… sorry for another one. But with ufx ii I don’t get any ‘ping’ calculated.

I am on my mac mini (intel)
Cubase 12 Pro
also tested Cubase 11 Pro,

ADAT out (send) Analog (Return)
clicked on the measure latency, 0 value does not change.

Um, I do have Cubase 13 pro on my mac studio but this one project I am almost finished on mac mini and this ‘ping’ system is buggy right?

So many RME users reporting they are getting no ‘ping’ calculated ‘but’ some of them get ping right… hahahaha this is some weird issue huh…

I mean, I don’t really care as long as I can calculate the ‘ping’ myself manually,
cause once is enough right?

I guess this is ongoing battle within the community, with this bug

hmm… The funny thing is, anyone can measure ‘ping’ for each EXTERNAL FX channel manually, then should be all good?

For me, this is another note, when I send out through ADAT (lets say) adat 3-4, 5-6, 7-8
3 stereo busses, when I monitor them, even though I add so many more 3rd plugins, the timing though stayed the same, which is ok for me, there was no ‘added’ delay on my end.

So if I’d mix through summing mixer, for my case, it should be ok then…?

What would be the potential problems I may be having?

Anyways, I get no ping no matter what I do/setup…

[djpat]

For C12 you have to use the “Check User Delay” option. I have attached pics of how it looks on Windows, not sure how it looks on Mac. On Windows you right click on the bus name to get that menu.

Also attached are 3 images of the screen depending on if you did things right. The first one is if you have done nothing (not checked user delay), it will show 0.00ms.

The 2nd one is if you check user delay but don’t have an input selected or have the wrong input selected.

The third is what it looks like if you do it right. I should also point out an oddity here. You have to redo this setup every time you change sample rate. On my MOTUs I get 2.34 ms of delay at 44.1 but 1.70 ms of delay at 96K. I assume your buffer settings and all that will also impact the numbers you get.

This is a royal pain in the behind that Steinberg could easily handle automatically.

[JohnShin]

DJ Pat, thank you so so much! I am very new to this External FX feature, since, I never use external outboard gears in real-time anywho… because I never found it needed… I see the pain though, cannot imagine the pain with all those 10 compressors/eqs and whatnot to make it sync on playback for those engineers… so that seems, no issue for me, as I mentioned above.

Matter of fact, (I like your setting by the way, MixDream <— heard only good things about it) anyway, I am trying to set it right for Neve 5057 orbit summing mixer.

So, this is what I just did, I told myself, 'well, f it… I will just mix through old school way, just like the … Dangerous Music summing 2-bus tutorial youtube video, I will just send busses to dedicated channels outs, e.g. ADAT 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 + Analog 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 = then monitor them through Orbit SUM out through analog inputs of my ufx ii = through my Monitor speakers.

I guess… I hate technical issues like this, I will just go this way huh… Just send it out, monitor as I mix through… haha… I know it is a dumb way but, yeah…

In fact, I don’t even need External FX function for my case… because, I don’t need this latency to be compensated to align with other audio tracks, because I would ‘totally’ work Out-Of-the-Box you know??

So, what would be the downside of my setup scenario…?

What I just did though, on cubase 12 pro, I sent:
adat 3-4 (outputs) : returning it to analog 3-4 (inputs)
analog 5-6 (outputs) : returning it to analog 5-6 (inputs)

And put the same DRUM loop.

Recorded it, then manually, calculated the alignment difference and found out,
My analog output should be ‘4 samples’ later for adat + analog to be ‘on’ sync.

So, then, I tried plugins test, I inserted 10 inserts of Weiss DS-1 mk3 on adat 3-4, giving a lot of latency 844.9 ms.

Re-recorded, and it seems ‘that plugin latency’ part was compensated on Cubase end, fortunately. So yeah, again, timing was perfect with only ‘4 samples’ delayed on analog out with Voxengo Sound Delay plugin.

This is um, I guess, manual way? for me to, mix ‘through’ the orbit box. hahaha…

Um, yeah, any other suggestion/ better wayaround? Do you think I would still need External FX for my case? I will try again your method too, but last night I tried user latency, I see the ping noise on Totalmix FX (RME software) but still 0 ms.

Maybe because my buffer is huge? I always keep it 2024 samples when I am mixing for smoother playback and cpu usage. I tried as precise as possible haha

Thank you so much DJ pat, I wonder if you mix through MixDream though?

[JohnShin]

One more thing, watch this French youtube video,
this man uses External FX feature with 5057 orbit,
and also he does A/Bing and this setup would be my end-goal for analog summing plus comparing with Digital itb mixing… but wonder how he does this.

RND 5057 Orbit en périphérique externe dans Cubase !

He has Arturia interface + adat I believe. And his ping works though hahaha!

[JohnShin]

Ok so Dj Pat, I would try one more time, just explain to me what your SEND and RETURN were…? up there?
I make the stereo EXTERNAL FX bus right?

Tell me, random ADAT send <— and RETURN channels.

Am I setting it wrong?

I put:
ADAT 3-4 (cranborne 500adat) as send.
ANALOG 3-4 (ufx ii) as RETURN.

[JohnShin]

Yeah, still value 0.00 ms

[JohnShin]

Oh and, this man gets 'negative latency delay value on his Cubase, but mine does not go below zero, that could mean something aye

[djpat]

I am looking at your pictures, and unless you don’t have your summing mixer connected and powered on, I can’t explain why it isn’t working.

If you play sound out of that external fx, does it come back in?

Edit:

If you take an audio track, with sound in it: Duplicate it. Insert your one summing mixer “external fx” on the duplicate. Play them back at the same time. They should play back the same and your voxengo plugin should say they are the same. I would just do that for each of your outputs and manually enter the value.

One issue here… Cubase is calculating the number of samples are delayed. In my picture above you can see the (162) after the 1.70 ms. If I type in 1.70 ms… Cubase calculates that as 163 samples. So it must be rounding off 1.70xxxxx to 1.70 that is why it is best to try and get it to calculate internally.

Worst case scenario… you will be off + or - 1 sample if you type in manually.

[JohnShin]

So the orbit is not connected yet, because

I had to be sure that, sending signals - they send on right timing?

So I had to check the mis-alignment of adat out + analog out,
Because then I would not face any phase issue/ timing issue with orbit then.

So, my test was,
Direct outs of adat back into analog in of ufx ii.
Analog outs of ufx ii back into analog in of ufx ii.

Yeah, I get the return signal back when I insert it!

I think… it could be, UFX issue.

A lot of RME users having 0.00 zero value ping issue, throughout lol

crazy aye…

Yeah so, UFX ii is the only interface that I have, I just gotta figure out the wayaround to maximize the usage of 5057 orbit … haha… this is just my first time applying analog summing mixer, before that, I was just mixing in the box with outboard gears, just printing on the fly, never touched that External FX feature once for the past 15 years of my Cubase life lol…

It is indeed strange, and it seems, Steinberg and RME just do not care much. So… what the hell, I would find a wayaround it aye…

[JohnShin]

Sound comes back in because it is just another converter.

ADAT out, is cranborne 500adat so, it is not compressor nor eq?
Just round trip check yeah yeah.

[djpat]

It is probably best to try the ping test with the orbit connected and wired exactly the way you plan to use it.

[JohnShin]

Oh but the orbit is only Summing out, so I feed the signals of the busses with 2 converters: ufx ii + cranborne 500adat (total 12 channels), meaning, I would not mind about the roundtrip latency from orbit master out (I can always print this anyway?), because it is sum box, what I care about is, timing difference between ufx and 500adat sending signals u know?

Once I connect it all, I would try that out too but I need to figure the adat ping + analog out ping first before feeding into the summing box (hope I make sense…? lol)

Actually so I thought, I would probably just trial+error and put in latency myself manually, but one worry is that, I cannot put - negative value onto that latency box (external fx)

But thanks for all your help! much much appreciated!

[JohnShin]

I am waiting on new dsub cables actually and I will update here once all connected and do full test
For now, I would most likely just ditch external fx setup.

I think Fab Dupont like 10 years ago, according to his Youtube tutorial video with Dangerous 2-bus, his setup was similar as my setup scenario, just buss it out, and monitor through return stereo signal.

Cubase Analog Summing with Dangerous Music

The catch for me is that, I send out, with 2 different brand converters, so yeah, downside of this is that, I cannot a/b freely cause external fx is not engaged. Yeah, yeah, I will try my best to get the best solution for my end!