I am trying to put together a demo for a piece that I have in Dorico. The ideal would be to export it completely, import that into Reaper, and then change instruments and effects to create the sound that I’m looking for. I have this mostly done, just wondering if there is a way to include the changes in dynamics in the export. Articulations would also be nice although I am not using that too much in the piece I am working on now. The piece is short, yet features pretty frequent changes in dynamics, from sudden differences to crescendos and decrescendos. Wondering if there is any way to export these dynamic changes into midi or xml so that I can have a more accurate change in reaper. For this song I’ll probably just make the changes manually while waiting for responses. I would be interested in the advice for future uses.
While I’m here, I’ve also noticed that exported xml files will not sound repeated notes. Midi, on the other hand, will. If there is any workaround to this I would be interested in hearing more. Also, if there are any more general reasons to use xml vs. midi I’d be interested in that as well.
Currently have Dorico 4, considering upgrading to Dorico 5 atm so if there is any difference in how this is covered in the two versions please let me know.
If you are using expression maps and drawn in the CC lanes then these are exported into the MIDI, so you should be able to load it into a DAW with the same plugins and you should get the same effects.
Ok. I looked more into the cc that have been included in the exports to my daw. Velocity and mod wheel changes were both successfully exported. Dynamics, or cc11, was not. Can’t find anything online about how to export that specifically through midi.
The MIDI exported by Dorico includes everything that Dorico does during playback, so if your expression maps specify the use of CC11 for dynamics, or if you have manually added CC11 data using the Key Editor, that data will be included in the exported MIDI.
I haven’t specified anything different in channel to use for dynamics, I assumed it was automatically set to cc11 based on the way it’s listed in the expression map. I checked whether it was being exported correctly by trying to import the midi into dorico though. I imported it and it had no dynamics. I tried creating a different export to then import back in, still nothing. I tried importing the new file with a “general midi” option on and off. No effect (I don’t know what that does so no surprise there). So I’m wondering if there is a setting that can help retain the dynamics in the midi export, or if I messed it up somehow. I just got Dorico 5 so it seems to be an issue for me in both 4 and 5. I know you’re not going to go back and update 4, I just figured I’d mention it to know that it’s not working for me in the new version either–wondering what oversight I might have made.
It depends on the instrument you’re using. If you’re just playing back everything with a piano sound and not hearing any other instruments except piano, the “Default” expression map for piano uses only velocity.
You can check the expression map being used in Play mode, choose the Track Inspector on the left and then select a track. It will show you what expression map it is using in the inspector. It will be different for each track.
Ok, that might be something to mention. I selected a choral TTBB template, and then switched it to HSO Violoncello Solo Combined for playback. Everyone of those shows Velocity + Mod Wheel Dynamic as the expression map, yet has differences in Dynamics when I look at the key editor that are not seen in CC1 or Velocity. It seems they are all used to change dynamics is that correct?
With the “Velocity + Mod Wheel Dynamic” expression map it sends both velocity and CC1 to control the dynamic for the instrument. You would see the CC1 data on export, which you are seeing, so everything is working.
I do see the changes in CC1 and velocity, but in Dorico I see additional changes for a separate “playing technique” in the key editor called dynamics. Earlier I mentioned that this seems to be describing CC11 and that it is not being exported to the midi file.
The “Dynamics” lane you see in the key editor controls whatever is mapped as the dynamic controller in the expression map. In this case, you are using the “Velocity + Mod Wheel Dynamic” expression map, so the Dynamics lane is simultaneously controlling both Velocity and CC1 (and not CC11).
CC11 is the MIDI standard “expression” controller. It is not a standard controller for dynamics. Excluding piano-like or plucked instruments which typically use velocity, the majority of sample libraries out there (probably more than 90% of them) use CC1 for controlling dynamics with sustaining instruments (strings, woodwinds, brass, voice). A small percentage of libraries use CC11 for dynamics instead.
The most common use of CC11, implemented in almost all libraries, is as a secondary volume controller, not as a dynamic controller. With most libraries, decreasing CC11 will “turn down the volume knob” and make the instrument quieter without actually simulating a quieter dynamic. In these cases, automating CC11 up and down may not be desirable, because you’re just turning the volume up and down without also getting the change in timbre that happens at different dynamic levels.
Some sample libraries do use CC11 in the place of CC1 as a velocity crossfade controller to make the dynamic louder or quieter, but this is much more rare compared to the use of CC1 for this. If you do use a library that uses CC11 instead of the normal CC1 for dynamics, what you can do is in your DAW you can cut and paste the dynamics data from the CC1 lane to the CC11 lane.
Ok. With this in mind I tried it again through Dorico only trying to hear any differences in dynamics rather than looking for them in the Key Editor. It sounds like the dynamics from CC11 were implemented into the Mod Wheel, so you are correct, everything is working.
Now my other issue is recreating the sound in my DAW. One issue I’ve had for a while is that the expression on Reaper for HSO is set significantly lower than it is on Dorico. Usually I just manually write it in the track so that it doesn’t reset everytime. However, with dynamics being written into the mod wheel with this track I can’t do that without overwriting the dynamics so I need a better method.
So far, for this set of tracks I was using a set of FX including a preamp to increase the DB to an audible level. Now that I think about it this may have been changing the interactions between the dynamics in the sound in the DAW, which was the original reason I tried testing the Dorico midi files at all. If I boost all dynamics by the same amount, any dynamic changes could have changes in volume from those dynamics that is unrecognizable in the playback once all those changes are increased by a much larger volume. So maybe I should get rid of any use of the effects that are meant to boost volume. So I need a new way of making this change.
Now that I know that I can use CC1 and CC11 for similar uses I tried setting cc11 to a higher rate of expression, yet that expression change overwrote the volume changes as well it seemed. So I need to figure out another way of doing this. I selected all the points in the mod wheel envelope on my DAW and made the fortissimo section at 127, which to my understanding is the highest. Even with that though the mod wheel on HSO is shown to not move at all and the sound is only there with the FX amplifying the db.
I know this is a steinberg forum, yet this is the only library which I have worked with that has this, so I’m wondering if similar things have been found with Cubase and what is the consensus there.
As I said, for most libraries CC1 (the modwheel) controls dynamic (velocity crossfade), and CC11 (which has the official name “expression”) is a secondary volume controller controlling volume. So for the majority of libraries they do different things - CC1 controlling dynamic which is both loudness and timbre, and CC11 controlling an artificial volume knob.
Around 5-10% of sample libraries use CC11 as a dynamic controller doing velocity crossfade. These are generally libraries where they are using CC1 for some other purpose, such as controlling vibrato. You can also argue that this is more in line with what CC1 was intended for originally, and it probably is. The main reason this isn’t the universal norm is that most libraries don’t allow for direct vibrato control so CC1 isn’t doing that, and most MIDI keyboards have a modwheel but don’t have a built in fader that can be used for CC11. Since most people play these instruments in a DAW of some kind, having a physical dial or fader to adjust the dynamic is a must, and since most keyboards have the modwheel present, if it isn’t already being used for something else, it makes sense to use it for dynamic control for user friendliness.
If the library you are using responds to CC1 for dynamic control then you can usually get away with having it by itself. If CC1 by itself doesn’t give you enough control over amplitude to simulate big dramatic dynamic changes, then you can help it out with some CC11 shaping, most composers do.
If you’re finding that things are too quiet in your DAW, check the controller values that are used to control dynamics. CC7 (“volume”) with most libraries will default to 100, so 100 is usually a good starting point for CC7. CC11 (“expression”) when it is implemented to be a secondary volume controller normally defaults to 127 (the absolute maximum) so it will normally be as loud as it can possibly go but you can make it quieter. If you’re finding that you have to boost the output level of the instrument using some kind of gain FX plugin, there’s a good chance that either CC7 or CC11 is not set properly from the beginning and that is causing the sound to be too quiet which you are then adjusting with an FX plugin.
Usually composers implement what are called “MIDI flags” at the beginning of their track in the DAW to reset things like CC7 and CC11 to the correct things at the beginning, which in most cases will be 100 for CC7 and 127 for CC11. This ensures that every time you play the track, the CC values will be properly initialized at the start. For an explanation of this, see this video:
I have found an answer. It turned out that the reason any changes in the modulation wheel were not being shown in HSO was that I needed to use two outputs for each instrument for some reason, even when I only need 1 in Dorico. I would be curious to know why that is, though I will continue the comment I was typing when I found my solution in efforts to continue learning for future uses.
If you could highlight anything I might have missed that might be helpful. As I said, cc11 changes seem to be integrated into cc1. I am assuming you are familiar with HSO since this is a steinberg forum and you are just keeping things regarding other libraries in your responses to make any advice more generally applicable.
Any differences in how I set CC7 and CC11 in their initial state did not have the desired effect, which is that the mod wheel shown in HSO, was shown as lower than it is in playback through Dorico. This obviously results in the dynamic being lower than intended, to the point where it required the aforementioned effects to be audible. Differences in volume based on dynamics can be heard with these effects, and of course my goal is to make them audible without, so as not to disrupt the scale of volume by placing it through the effect. The volume is automatically set at a volume that should be audible, and if I write in anything to CC11 it makes no difference in base volume level. Previous attempts at this were mentioned above and showed overriding any changes in dynamics iirc. With that being said, I am not sure if MIDI flags were of any use in the context you have mentioned them, and I believe they were already in use in the DAW I use.
Essentially I just needed to know why the MIDI exported from Dorico resulted in a change in dynamics–even when the dynamic is fortisimo–are shown as below a recognizable level in the mod wheel in HSO when played through a DAW. As I said at the beginning of this comment, it seemed the solution was to make sure the desired instrument was set to different outputs.
