Just sometimes (e.g. after adding expression marks which cause the vertical layout to expand under collision avoidance ) I get overfull pages and system overlaps. All other pages are laid out nicely and I don’t want to alter all the layout and engraving options.
Why has Dorico not already put the colliding system onto the next page? Its marked overfull (106% ) - why does that not trigger a new page?
Indeed why does Dorico ever create have colliding staves? Don’t get me wrong : I really appreciate the way the layout and engraving options work. All I’m asking for is that after done all its magic it never lets staves collide.
Of course I can fix this with ‘mechanical engraving adjustments’. But adding ‘mechanical engraving adjustments’ is ultra bad because I’m still composing. I may add/subtract additional bars, which will force redo of mechanical engraving adjustments.
I haven’t added the Dorico file because I know that the support on this forum is so good that immediately people will send me fixed versions. But I don’t need this intermediate version fixed. I need to know for the future the prinples . I don’t want to have to send every finished piece to this forum to get a new set of layout options
"Automatically resolve collisions between adjacent staves and systems". I’ve probably got that turned on but where do I find it? is it a layout option or an engraving option ?
As regards the circular layout problem. If people can solve this problem (the type setters who worked for the 19th century music publishing companies) then a computer can solve it.
Maybe:
Let Dorico all the wonderful magic it does today and then at the end of that process get out ‘a great big spanner’. The ‘big spanner’ starts at page 1 and goes forward: For each page check: if any page has colliding systems. If so: push that system forward.
Every time the ‘big spanner’ algorithm is invoked go through all the pages from that point onwards repeating the same pair of algorithms (i.e. Dorico magic and then the great big spanner algorithm.)
Eventually you arrive at the last page!
Music scores proceed from left to right so this will always work.
I’m afraid you’re applying circular logic, as well:
‘I’m still composing. I may add/subtract additional bars, which will force redo of mechanical engraving adjustments.’
‘Let Dorico all the wonderful magic it does today and then at the end of that process get out ‘a great big spanner’. The ‘big spanner’ starts at page 1 and goes forward: For each page check: if any page has colliding systems. If so: push that system forward.’
‘Music scores proceed from left to right so this will always work.’
The key is doing your composing first and your layout ‘at the end of the process’. The difference with the 19th century music publishing companies is that they didn’t compose. In fact, they got irate at composers who kept altering their compositions, as it required creating a new layout, a time-consuming and expensive process. Nowadays many composers make their own editions but they don’t always realise that those are two completely different professions.
Sure, Dorico can’t always ‘get it right’ for the above-mentioned reasons but a combination of good settings, understanding how layout works and especially, how to apply manual intervention at the end of the process will get you there. Like many others here, I used to work with Finale and was used to constant manual intervention at all stages of the process, but have gotten used to this order of working which seems to function best.
It depends . My tutor insists that composition as an interactive process between:
you
your performers
and indeed your audience .
So: we must do much ‘early engraving’ so performers can play it, and if the engraving is not good performaners will not play it well and the audience will get a misleading impression. One of the problems with the modern technology is that it divorces composition from performance - or worse still that wonderful clean sound that comes out of NotePerformer is the performance.
What was once ‘paper music’ is now ‘electronic’ music and in the worst case performers are forced to try and do something to only a machine can do.
As regards my suggested algorithm . This is only what happens today. We spend a long time in Dorico trying to get the right layout settings . Then finally (i.e. ‘Finally’ as regards the popular end to end model described above ! ) we look at how it’s engraved and we then apply the BigSpanner (Add System break) to any bad pages. Then Dorico redoes it’s magic from where you last applied the BigSpanner to the end of the composition. There is nothing circular about this.
My humble suggestion is only that Dorico itself could do some of the BigSpanner work.
I think there is a huge difference between playable and perfect as far as engraving is concerned.
I have done a number of pieces where the ensemble has played through drafts (I’m fortunate to be able to do this). The players know the state of play and are quite happy to make accommodations for it, knowing the layout may change as we get towards performance.
With my general Dorico options, I get playable parts with virtually zero intervention beyond fixing sensible page turns. Admittedly I’m working with standard notations (no aleatory boxes!), so that might be a factor.
I am now a staunch advocate of the “get your notes in first and worry about (detailed) layout at the end” thanks to Dorico’s underlying model.
Even if I do need to make some Engraving interventions during the drafting process, I’m confident enough to reset them all after a major revision and start again (because the process is so quick).
(Yes, I’d still welcome the ability to have bar repeats in Parts, but not in Score (PLEASE?). That would make the process even simpler!)
Nothing your tutor says implies that all three dictums have to be applied simultaneously. (I doubt the players look over your shoulder as you compose.)
Yes. Dorico is extremely goodespecially for composing. However: there are a fair number of minor glitches. A very positive role for this forum is to report those glitches so that the Dorico team can build a better product.
Having now used Dorico for a round 6 months I have quite a large list of minor glitches . I don’t suppose my list is any better than anybody else’s but when I have time I will post it.
