Layouts section feature request: Duplicate Layout

Dorico
#1

I’d like to request that a “Duplicate Layout” (or “Copy Layout”) command be added to the contextual menu when right-clicking a layout, in order to create a copy of an existing layout as it is at that point in time. This would be super useful in cases where you might want to create an arrangement of an existing piece, keeping both versions in the same file, sharing the same musical data. For example, a cello version of a violin piece (à la Stravinsky: Suite Italienne), or a viola version of a clarinet piece (à la Brahms: Op. 120), etc… (It could probably also be helpful for 101 other reasons, including quickly creating a starting point for a variation of an instrumental part for the purposes of cross-comparison before making decisions on the final layout for that part.)

Currently, to duplicate an existing layout, it seems you need to create a new Layout (such as a new Full score), and modify its settings to match those of the one you are duplicating, swapping out Players as necessary, and re-formatting its engraved score with any manual adjustments and page breaks that were added to the first one. This can be quite time-consuming, unnecessarily duplicating work already done.

Being able to have multiple Layouts for a score in the same file is such a wonderful feature of Dorico (idem for having multiple Flows, as I am discovering) – how did we live without this before!!! Being able to duplicate an existing Layout would be oh-so-helpful!

#2

Yes, I agree that this would be useful, as would being able to copy e.g. the formatting (system/frame breaks, layout options, and master page changes and page overrides) from one layout to another.

The next update will provide some more tools for working with flows (e.g. duplicate a flow, split an existing flow in two, import a flow from another project or a MusicXML file into a new flow in the current project, export a flow) and perhaps in the update following we’ll be able to start thinking about more features for working with layouts, too.

#3

Sounds good! Agreed, copying the formatting from one layout to another would also be useful. I am glad some Flow tools will be added to the next update. Thanks! And keep up the great work! Already in the space of 4 or 5 months Dorico has grown up substantially.

#4

While Dorico seems a good start, working for an orchestral film music score without the layout duplicating feature (copy and paste from bassoon to double bass for example, where also system breaks / Page breaks / Bar numbering settings / multirests appearance etc. are copied) is pure madness & very time consuming in a large score. Please put this one on your priority list, until then, I will need to use your older notation program. :mrgreen:
It would be great if you could update this post when the feature is integrated or add an “Integrated” to the topic of this post. Thanks

#5

I too would love to copy existing layouts. I’m working on a score now which I have looking quite lovely and it is for piano and voice. I have my score formatted just right as a “master file” or “master score” if you will. Now I want to re-do the score twice, once for the pianist and once for the vocalist keeping the exact same formatting (ie- minimizing the “other person’s part” to create performance scores). Since the formatting is so nice (and I’ve spent much time in engrave mode tweaking it just so…) I simply want to right click on the parts and minimize them down to 75% while keeping everything else, spacing, page turns, and the like the same. I will simply be duplicating the dorico file and renaming it for now, but will love to have that feature in the future!

#6

Along with the “duplicate layout” feature suggested above, it would be helpful be able to copy/apply the layout options of one layout to another layout, or (especially) the notation options of one flow to another flow. Right now, I am in the midst of note entry in what will be probably an 80-flow project, and I’d like all the flows ideally to have the same notation options (and what notation options those are I’m not exactly sure—the best settings will become evident as more flows are entered). I could do this by setting defaults, of course, but that would apply the defaults to every new project I create, which I don’t necessarily want. Ideally, I could set basic notation options for flow 1 that I think will work, and then at flow 10 I’ll make e.g. five tweaks, and by flow 35 when I’ve made e.g. a dozen more tweaks, I could apply the notation options from flow 35 to the other 34 flows.

#7

Cor Anglais,

If all of your flows exist (even if there’s no music in them yet) when you make notation changes, you can apply those changes to multiple flows (or all of them) at once by either ctrl or shift+clicking which flows you want or clicking the select all button. It might not be exactly what you’re asking for, but it’s pretty darn close.

#8

I use Jari Williamsson’s Copy Part Layout plugin all the time in Finale. More often than not, this gets me close.
It doesn’t, however, copy the location and formatting of text frames. This would be useful too.

#9

I loved the suggestion (in another thread) to have another dimension of Flows, so that as well as selecting horizontally the flows to include, you could also have vertical alternatives.

#10

I’d like to second dudas’ feature request for the possibility to duplicate layouts, although I would call them duplicate parts. It would be a great time-saver to automate that. There is a function ‘Duplicate player’, but it just gives you the player, along with a corresponding layout, but not the music they play.
There are many occasions where you would e.g. double or substitute a player/part with an instrument in a different clef or transposition. At the moment, one has to copy/paste all music from all flows separately, and take care that the duplicate part doesn’t end up in the conductor’s score. Duplicating a part preferably also duplicates all layout settings, system/frame breaks etc., like mentioned above.

It would be useful to have options to either:

  • link the copied part to the original, so that any subsequent change in the original (or the copy) will carry over, just like in Dorico cues;
    or:
  • create the duplicate part as a real copy, i.e. as if all music was copied/pasted, so that the new part can be adapted without altering the original;
    or even:
  • have linked parts, but still have the possibility to apply some changes, like an occasional octave shift or ossia when a passage is out of range or impractical on the target instrument.

OT: I just finished a small project in Sibelius (shared someone else’s file), and although Sib, as yet, has a more comprehensive feature set (like a function to duplicate parts), it was strange to be back. I didn’t like it very much, I try to do everything in Dorico nowadays. Just for fun, I exported this Sib file to XML and imported it in Dorico. A few elements went missing, like % repetitions and bowing marks, but it just looked so much better in Dorico right away…

#11

I completely agree with the duplicate layout. It would be very helpful and convenient to have this option.

#12

Since this thread just restarted, I’ll throw in as well - yes, please! For example, I have a full score layout, and am asked to submit an anonymous score. Right now, I have to make a copy of the Dorico file, then delete composer info, etc. by hand.

It would be great to just duplicate the full score layout, and in the duplicate, delete those frames or items. (I know I could create a new layout from scratch, but this would be so much easier.)

I’m looking forward to the new flow tools - these guys really think about how to do these things, and it shows!

#13

If your composer name is populated from the Project Info field, you would only have to change it in one place (to a space or other nondescript character) for your whole piece. Then you could change it back as soon as you have printed out the file for the competition.

#14

You know, this is my first big project in Dorico, and sometimes I forget about The Dorico Way - this is perfect! Thanks!

#15

This thread has evolved in covering several topics. I have a strong need at least for two of them:

  1. Copy the layout properties from one layout to another with different musical content. As I am writing music mainly for non-professional musicians, I’d like to have for all players of e.g. the trumpet section the same line breaks or page breaks for all parts. This makes things easier particularly in rehearsals. Obviously the challenge will be to solve the conflicts with the engraving rules that may occur.

  2. Create a second layout on the same musical content but for a different instrument, different clef, different transposition, possible hiding some elements. Again in the case of non-professional musicians: If you have a trombone player with a Marching Band or British Brass Band background, he or she is likely to prefer reading a treble clef in Bb, transposed one octave higher. If the trombone player has a classical or jazz background, the preference would likely be a bass clef in concert pitch. Another example: If you are writing a score for big band with a vocal soloist, you may want to provide for rehearsal purposes a copy of the vocal part for instruments in Bb, possibly with the lyrics hidden. From those notation plattforms I know (Sibelius, Finale, Musescore, Dorico a little) none of those can do it all of it, although Finale allows to associate a different instrument to a user defined part.

#16

Welcome to this forum!

  1. When it comes to the actual formatting, there’s a decent way to do it already;
  • Open Trumpet 1
  • Create a system break at the very beginning of the flow (this makes it easier, but can be skipped)
  • Select all
  • Use Edit->Filter->All Breaks
  • Copy
  • Open Trumpet 2
  • Select an item at the very beginning
  • Paste
  • Repeat for Trumpet 3,4, etc

Once you know the steps, it only takes a matter of seconds. However, general copying of properties between layouts is one of the most requested features on this forum, so it’s definitely on the developers radar.

  1. Don’t know about different clefs and octave transposition, but I believe the developers have said they hope to implement a way of transposing layouts to other keys.
    For now, maybe you can use cues? If you play around with Engraving options (cmd+shift+E / ctrl+shift+E) > Cues, and Notation options (cmd+shift+N / ctrl+shift+N) > Rests, you should get a good result with minimal effort.
#17

Anders, re your number 1, this is only reliable if rhythmically the Trumpet 2 part is identical to the Trumpet 1 part.

In any other situation if you wanted to force identical layout you’d really need a manually-inserted system break at the beginning of EVERY system, set to Wait for next system break.

#18

That’s a good point Leo, but I’ve found it to be a reliable starting point for section parts that are more or less identical. Your solution is definitely more bullet proof, but it takes a bit more time.

#19

Thanks Anders and Leo for your suggestions and comments!

Re 1: I was not aware that you could filter and copy the line breaks - that’s definitively a good start.

Re 2: The idea with using cue notes came up to me as well. It solves partly the problem with making sure that the musical material is the same - but I still have to add a second player in my score. I hope that I am not too much tweaking the Dorico concept: Rather than having two players in this case I’d like to have one player which happens to play several instruments but he/she is not instructed to change the instrument at a certain bar but may choose the instrument it his/her discretion. It is already possible to allocate several instruments to one player, so in the customs layout definition there should not only be a defintion of the player(s) but also of the instruments he/she is allowed to play.

Heinz …