Lyrics: how to re-echo?

Hello, how can I produce this sign (I do not even know the name for it…)
I am on Mac, by the way.

This is the original wording:

And this is, what I get by pressing -

How can I produce a hard … of this kind?

Thank you for help.
Re-echo around.png


On Windows you press alt- to get a hard hyphen.
On Mac I guess that maps to the option key?

Wouldn’t you want what Dorico gives you, though? Three syllables over three notes?

seventy6 and pianoleo, thank you for your help. I have now used hard spaces (Shift-Alt-Space) and a long hyphen (Shift-Alt-hyphen) and got this result after a bit of shifting in Engrave Mode:


Dear k_b,
it’s my opinion, and I do not have any official expertise on that matter, especially when it comes to english language. However, as a professional french singer, I would never input such M-dash as an hyphen in a french text. At least in French, they have a specific meaning. I bet any singer would perfectly understand a version with two hyphens (re-e-cho) in the score…

Dear Marc,
I was hoping you would jump in. Without knowing the exact meaning of an M-dash, it does look a bit odd here. Is there something between hyphen amd M-dash?
My instinct tells me that Re-echo has a slight ‘glottal stop’ before the second e (Re-’echo).
If I read Re - e - cho the transistion between the two ‘e’ sounds implies a more fluent transition??
This might be total nonsense though…

Dear k_b,
I think that typographic norms have been there for many decades. In french, an M-dash has the same kind of meaning that parenthesis — it allows this kind of comment in a sentence. There is the N-dash that is shorter — actually the length of M or N-dashes are the horizontal length of M and N. N-dash is used for other purposes than M-dash, but I think you’d be interested in reading some clear and complete information on specific sites. I’ve done that work for french language, but I admit I don’t know much about english. One thing I know is that I (as a reading performer) would not understand why a sign is used in a score when it’s not the standard without an explanation. And the explanation would make the use of a non-standard sign useless. If you want a slight glottal stop, I would rather read something clear that says that :wink:
Anyway, I don’t see any other way to sing re-e-cho than that slight glottal stop, otherwise it would be written re - - cho or ree - - cho. And those little differences are something we singers are used to read to determine how to sing our lines!

I want to chime in and say that I would be perfectly happy with the solution you came up with in your very first post.
Even at first sight, I would not even think about singing re-e-cho as ree-cho or something other than intended. I assume there’s also context around that will help to make things clear.

re-echo does have two completely different sounds for the two e.
The first e = like ee in bee (English)
the second e = like è in frère (French)
the transition would be either

  1. aprupt/sudden by using a glottal stop re’echo
    or it would be
  2. fluent by using an intermediate sound like y re-y-echo.
    mmh, does this make sense? I would be interested how a native speaker pronounces this or how a professionell singer would sing this. Use of glottal stop is typical for ‘C o c k n e y’ pronunciation in British English but may be not exclusively.

Yes, but… so what? That’s what the English language is like.
It’s re-enable, re-enact, re-entertain, re-echo.
People will know how to say your words :wink:
Or do I misunderstand you and you do want your singers to do a distinct pronounciation?

Any classically-trainer British singer would know to put a glottal between “re” and “e”(cho). I’m very happy to ask the four that I’m working with today, today, if you’re not happy taking that from a British pianist :slight_smile:

Estigy, I know it is all about subtleties: as a non English speaker, my first example at the very top does not let me recognise the word re-echo instantly. Because the lyric dash is quite similar to the hyphen, on first sight it looks like an Asian word written with western characters :wink:
slighty resembling a Japanese name Rioko

pianoleo :musical_keyboard: :lion:,
I am very happy to take it from a British or even Scottish pianist, especially if you are working with a bunch of singers today. Please ask them with best regards from a German (European).
Here in Germany English choir singing is really terrible. There seems to be a consensus that English is a language with a lot of soft consonants therefore has not to be pronounced properly… horror. Whereas English on stage has to be rather exaggregated and be pronounced probably more like Italian :it:

k_b, I’m from Austria, so not an English native, too :wink:

Ha! Indeed! I’m currently rehearsing Händel’s Te Deum for the victory of Dettingen with a non professional choir. It’s a nightmare…

… the usual problem is, they have English teachers as „experts” sorting out the pronunciation, which will make things worse. The only way is to work with a professional English trained singer in this case - best even someone coming from the English choir tradition.

If you’re interested at all in what a professional American singer has to say (one who sings in the Episcopal church, i.e. our own little homegrown brand of Anglicanism, i.e. about as close to the true British choral tradition as you can get in America), I have to say, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with your very first example. Native English speakers will recognize it instantly, and the inclusion of an n-dash or m-dash will only serve to confuse. They’d probably still sing it correctly, but it’d definitely look like a typo if something other than the standard lyric dash was used.

As far as how it’d be pronounced, I think you’d actually get something subtly in between a full-on glottal and a full-on j-glide (a ‘y’ sound), the same way it’s generally pronounced when spoken (a full glottal stop sounds stilted and a full j-glide sounds sloppy). In any case though, no matter how you notate it, it won’t change how a choir or singer will pronounce it. For that you’d need an asterisk with a footnote or something. As long as they can recognize the word, they’ll pronounce it however they’re going to pronounce it. And the best way to make it recognizable is re-e-cho.

Fwiw, I’m nearly positive that’s what you’d get by consulting Gould’s chapter on lyrics.

Thank you snakeeyes021 for the detailed and thorough explanation, I appreciate it :slight_smile:

I’m very happy to see that my point of view is international :slight_smile: