Make Into Frame command changes system breaks

I’m trying to fit the music from one flow onto two pages in each part. I’ve done it with all but this one I’m having difficulty with. I’ve laid out the systems the way I want them in terms of what measures are in each system and where the breaks are, I just need to fit an extra system on page 1. I’m selecting the music in the systems I want, clicking “Make Into Frame,” and it puts it all on the first page. However, in doing so, it bumps the last measure of the first system onto its own line. Then when I select the music I want in that first system (the now existing first two systems) and click “Make Into System,” it does it, but it kicks the last two bars from the now second system onto their own line and bumps the last two systems of the page onto a new second page. I’m attaching a video to help in case my explanation is confusing.

Best,

Jeremy
Frame-System_Breaks.zip (1.96 MB)

See https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=142061#p764128 for instance.

Okay, I see that Dorico doesn’t like to do this, but it worked fine on other parts, and if I get rid of the system breaks and only use the “Make Into Frame” command, Dorico will try to pile all 9 systems onto the page and overlapping, instead of squeezing an extra bar onto each system so it’s only 7 or 8 systems on the page. Is there another way to do this that I’m missing?

All that the Make Into commands do is set one break that waits for another break. You can do this yourself, by inserting a System or Frame Break and ticking the Wait For Next properties.

A nifty trick is a Note Spacing Change at the start of the selection (on the Engrave menu - in this case to take the top value down from probably the default 4 spaces to e.g. 3.5), with another Note Spacing Change at the end of the selection that just Resets the first option. Will likely achieve the same result without inserting any System Breaks. (I say “likely” as I’m typing this on a phone - I’ve not looked at the project.)

That did the trick! Apparently what was happening was when I used “Make into Frame” it was deactivating the “Wait for next system break” property (not sure why, but clicking that fixed everything). Thanks so much!

This is why my recommendation is that you don’t use the Make Into buttons on overlapping material.

If you already have a Break at the start of bar 8, for instance, and you use Make Into on bars 1-7, Dorico puts a Break at the start of bar 1 and it overwrites the Break at the beginning of bar 8, unsetting the Wait For Next property that may have been set on the Break that was originally at bar 8.

(If you go back sufficiently you may even find posts in which I grumble about the existence of the Make Into buttons, or that people shouldn’t be allowed to use them until they know the manual process of inserting breaks and setting the Wait For Next property. My stance on that has softened over the years :wink:)

So I understand your point, but “Make Into Frame” and “Make Into System” are much faster ways of accomplishing the task than doing it all individually. I also don’t see why one should affect the other (I understand that’s how Dorico “thinks”) unless they actually conflict, like trying to lock a selection into a frame when your selection begins or ends in the middle of an existing locked system.

How is Dorico supposed to “know” whether you want to keep to the existing breaks, or change them? The basic object in Dorico is a frame or system break with some properties (including “wait for another break”), not a locked page or system.

I agree it is confusing if you think a “locked page” is a different sort of object from “two frame breaks,” but with almost everything in Dorico, eventually have to learn how it actually works, not how you think it might work or should work. Otherwise you are blindly following instructions to do specific tasks without understanding what is going on, or you end up confused because things don’t work the way you expect.

I guess my point is that while I understand what Dorico is doing in practice (removing an existing system break completely and replacing it with a frame break), the setting in question (wait until next system break) can be applied to both types of breaks. It would be nice if Dorico would maintain that setting when it’s putting the break at the same location (at least when using the “Make Into Frame” command). Maybe when inserting the breaks manually it could override, but the phrase “Make Into Frame” doesn’t imply that other settings will be affected.

Yes, I agree with you, jawmusic, and there are some circumstances where Dorico loses the properties of breaks when you use the Make Into… or Lock… commands, and we’re working to fix that.