Master-Page not linked when inserting a new page

This might be a bug:

  • Say you created a new master page called “score-cover”
  • Select page one
  • Do “Insert Pages”, insert one page using the master-page “score-cover”

The result is that a page is inserted, but not one using the “score-cover” master page. Rather, the inserted page looks like the master-page, but everything is instantiated as an override. To link it to the correct master-page you have to select it, then use the “Insert Master-page Change” feature. This is quite unintuitive. I think the newly created page should actually use the specified master-page and display as “not overridden” when freshly created.

J-F

Dear J-F,
I understand that you can find it unintuitive — but now you use the program as designed.
Actually, there’s nothing really intuitive with masterpages (until you master it) because of its quite complex nature.
The proper workflow is what you wrote : create your masterpages, and whenever you need thzm, use the change masterpage function. It’s good that, by default, Dorico automatically populates the pages with first and default masterpages, otherwise new users would be really frustrated with masterpages from the very beginning!!!

I think the thing that the OP isn’t understanding is this:

The only thing that causes pages to be automatically created is the presence of music. As such, a page that contains no music frames cannot exist without overrides.

Do correct me if I’m wrong, here.

Merci Marc. Indeed, it’s essential that first and default are created by default. In the use case I described, I would expect Dorico to behave more like the industry standard (I remember when I was using Quark XPress way back in the 20th century…) That’s OK, since there is a workaround, but I don’t find it very elegant.
Pianoleo, thanks. Actually, a page with no music can completely exist with no overrides. It just has to refer a master-page with no music.

…except a Master Page Change is an override, isn’t it?

Not really — at least it’s not modified by “remove overrides”… So that depends on what you define as an override!

In my view, anything that’s linked to an individual page constitutes an override. Master page changes definitely fall into that category, don’t they?

pianoleo, overrides appear as Red Triangles, Master-Page Change as horizontal green line.
What adds to the confusion is that then you apply a Master-Page change to a page, Dorico doesn’t get rid of the overrides (I would expect Dorico to apply the Master-Page and get rid of the previous overrides, but it’s not what happens.) You need to do an additional step: click “Remove Overrides” to actually apply the Master-Page with no inherited overrides.

pianoleo, a master-page change is definitely not an override. See for instance:
https://steinberg.help/dorico/v2/en/dorico/topics/engrave_mode/engrave_mode_master_page_overrides_c.html#engrave_mode_master_page_overrides_c

I didn’t specify “Master Page Override”; I specified “Override”. Maybe I need to come up with a term that the Dorico team haven’t already used!

I’ll go with “Page Irritation”.

It’s impossible to do what you’re trying to do without a “Page Irritation”. A “Page Irritation” is a Master Page Change, a Page Number Change or a Master Page Override. If you’ve manually added a Page Irritation and then add or remove a page anywhere before the Page Irritation, the Page Irritation may not automatically move with the Page it was previously attached to. As such, it causes the user to redo (potentially) a fair bit of work.

Is that clearer?

I’m used to it now, but I’ve also struggled a bit with inserting title pages that I set up as master pages. When you manually insert a front page, Dorico lets you specify what master page you want, but then ignores this choice and gives you an overridden ‘First’ page instead. I can repair this by removing the override (at which moment the page unexpectedly appears to be a First), and assigning the Title Page MP to it.
I think this shouldn’t be necessary. Inserting a (title, blank, or whatever) page before the first music page should do just that, and not introduce a red triangle. Why else ask for which MP to use in the first place?

That’s exactly my point, PjotrB. At least, there’s a workaround. All best.

Peter, this would be a case where you would create a custom master page, based off a blank template, design it to be a title page, and insert a master page change at page 1.

Since your new title master page does not contain a music frame, it will basically be the same thing as inserting a page. But with no overrides.

I wrote a post about this on Scoring Notes Blog which should be getting published Monday. Hopefully users find it helpful.

Use case: a bundle of baroque sonatas with relatively short flows, printed consecutively (i.e. not a new page for each flow), with only a new First Page for each sonata, every 3 or 4 flows.
Testing: only applying a master page change to get a Title page (which is a Custom one) on page 1, like Dan suggests, doesn’t shift the First Page forward. Page 2 still is a Default page (but now showing the start of the music, of course), and subsequent manual MP changes (to get First Pages for the other sonatas) also do not shift correspondingly, messing up the layout.
Inserting a whole new title page, however, does shift the rest of the pages forward (fortunately).

If you insert a master page change using a master page that doesn’t contain a music frame, it will indeed shift everything over by one page. Unless, of course, your “First” master page contained no music frames either. What adds a page is that Dorico needs to complete the flow, so it’ll add pages on the end if necessary. You’re right that page 2 will remain a default master page. You’d want a custom master page change on page 1, a “First” master page change on page 2, and defaults on all the following.

I’ve found a Custom master page change replaces a First master page, it doesn’t bump it to page 2.

Although I wasn’t aware that inserting a master page change fails to carry the manual formatting onto the correct pages. You’re saying that any manual changes apply only to that absolutely page number in the layout, no matter what? That’s certainly undesirable!

Peter and Dan: to mention one more related problem: here is one about Staff Spacing, not overrides.
When you insert a page (say, before page 1), all of the adjusted Staff Spacing is reset on all pages!
Use case (that just happened to me): make a part look nice in Engrave mode. It’s a part with 10 Flow Headers, using just one First page and subsequent Default pages.
Add a cover page: all of your staff spacing work is lost.
It is a huge problem, of course!

We know it’s not helpful for staff spacing data to be removed when the page indexes change. We do certainly plan to address that in the future.

Good to know! Thanks.

My dream from my first adventure with master pages comes true :slight_smile: