Maximizer v. Limiter (v. Brickwall Limiter)?

Sounded good at the time. :smiley: :smiley:

iZotope has a Dithering with Ozone PDF, that, contrary to what the title suggests, is 85% about dithering in general.

In relation to my query, on page 25, they state:

Don’t Loudness Maximize to 0 dB and then try to add dither, or even filter DC offset. You could go
over.

My question is answered with a ‘Yes’, it can tip 0FS to clipping.

People need to be aware of the difference between digital clipping and true peak clipping (inter sample clipping). A perfectly non-clipping audio file can still produce clipping in the DA stage of converting to analog. So maximizing or limiting to 0 dBfs is always a bad idea if true peaks are not considered. Certainly not when further conversion (to MP3 for example) is to take place.

Ozone has a checkbox to include mitigating inter-sample clipping. I haven’t looked at Cubase’s Maximizer to see whether it does.

It has been a while on this forum. Sorry to be so late to the party :slight_smile:

I still have some questions and wonder what you guys think.
I’m playing around with the cubase plugins. I do have 3rd party plugins but I’m interested in using the ones found in steinberg because of the integration. It is quite handy the way it is set up (channel strip). And it seems more resource effective.

So, in terms of mastering:

  1. Is there any difference in putting the limiter in the channel strip and in the inserts, i.e. slot seven? Pre/post fader that is.
  2. My understanding is that the Brickwall and the standard limiter has the possibility to change the release, but with the brickwall there is no make up gain at all. And the brickwall has an detect intersample clipping which can be uesful.
  3. Both maximizer and standard limiter has make up gain, but the maximizer does this automatically.
  4. The maximizer has the possiblity to add a soft clip and, in the channels strip (only?) it also has the possibility to mix its effect, so if you want a limiting effect, make sure you put it to 100.

So, it seems like all the plugins have their own purpose. It is interesting how there is no plugin that can do all of it.
I have found that the Standard limiter is the most useful for mastering purposes and the most control (out of the three limiters). It also sounds the best in my mind since you can control the release. I often get bad distortion and strange artefacts on even very low reduction with the maximizer. We’re talking around -2db. I also find that the optimize number on the maximizer to be quite arbitrary. I find it the least useful plugin and wonder about its purpose. Perhaps you guys can tell me.

Then there is the VST dynamics which is quite useful because you save inserts with this one. And it has soft clip and release control. It lacks make up gain in the limiter, but you can do that with the compressor which is included. It is probably the better plugin of them all for mastering. but is not in the strip (understandably)

In the end it just seems like steinberg has a bunch of disconncted plugins that are not so streamlined and thought out. Why not one plugin that does the job well? Actually, they mostly sound good, I just wonder about the many versions that are seemingly similar and all having one feature that the other does not. Why VST dynamics, three limiters AND the channel strip? It is rather confusing. And if you want dither you need another insert plugin as well with cubase since it is not included in any limiter. Steinberg has it yes, but you need another insert.

Ozone has been mentioned before. It is a fantastic plugin, but is very expensive and a total resource hog. It also does everything in one plugin that steinberg needs three or four to do.

My favorite limiter is L2 by Waves. It just sounds fantastic. It has dither included and there is no clipping/distortion within reasonable levels. But, I do think that you can do rather well with stock plugins if you know what you are doing. Does steinberg know what they are doing with these plugins? Could they include a better manual?

Still wanted to try steinberg and see what they can do. I really like the interface and I think most plugins are totally ok if you know what you are doing. I wish the manual would be a little more clear about them.

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limiters - limit everything to a threshold dB
maximisers - limit everything to a threshold dB then boost that signal to a second threshold

best way to think of it is like distortion: you lower the signal->then CRANK IT UP

It makes your music louder without distortion

But even if you mix your music at a very high level the listener can control his listening level with a volume button

So even if you mix it to sound terrific on subwoofer and discos at high level the listener can end up listening to you, on a little ipad speaker at very low level

Exactly this is why dubstep approach is to play 1 main sound at a time (other than drums) rather than many smaller ones.
Think of it this way:

  • if I play a siren it will seem very loud
  • if i play a siren with a drumloop it will sound less louder
  • if i play a siren with a drumloop and a guitar it sounds even less louder
    nomatter what compressor/limiter/maximizer u use

I have a question about inter-peak distortion / true peak.

What is the best way to detect and control this in Cubase?
I just premiered some audio in a classroom and the bass was rattling the ceiling speakers. Everything was exported with a limiter set to a 0db output (but with substantial input gain) so I’m wondering what causes this.

Does that limiter have true peak detection? If so, you should switch that on - and even then, it’s better to stay away from 0 dB. Especially if you want to encode the audio later (to mp3 for instance) you’ll need extra headroom because the peaks will change from it. Personally, I now use -1 dB True Peak, but SoundCloud even recommends -2 dB TP for uploaded music!

I’m using the stock Cubase limiter. I then threw a brickwall limiter on the Master Bus AFTER the limiter, and the brickwall is getting peaks about 0db on its input.
Does this mean in all my future projects, I should have a limiter set to -0.1 db, and then a brickwall right after it just to be safe?
Also, can someone explain to me what the UV22HR plugin is, and when I should use it?
Thanks.

Well, I never use limiters in Cubase so I don’t know about true peak in it. But the issue will be with the limiter on the master bus, whether this is the brickwall or not makes no difference. I don’t know where you put the one before it… On every track?

Anyway, I was talking about -1 dB that I use on mastered tracks, not -0.1 dB!
The UV22HR is a bit reduction or dithering plugin. To be used whenever you got to a lower bit rate from a higher source (for instance from 32bit float to 24bit or 16bit).

I put a limiter on the Masterbus. I then put a Brickwall Limiter in the slot directly after the limiter on the Master Bus. The Brickwall Limiter showed the signal going above 0dB, despite there being a limiter right before it on the slot.

Maybe the Brickwall Limiter does have True Peak detection and sees true peaks coming in through the other. But why use 2 limiters? And, however you do it, limiting to 0 dB (or anything above -1dB) is really not a good idea.

The thing that is causing this is certainly the ceiling speakers being 100 V speakers.

[/quote]
The thing that is causing this is certainly the ceiling speakers being 100 V speakers.
[/quote]

??
I’m not even using speakers right now, just headphones?
I’m confused, the logic of a limiter is to limit, and it says it’s doing so in the plugin window, but there’s a peak signal when I add a Brickwall Limiter set to a 0dB threshold.

Re-read what you wrote above and what I quoted…

Ah you mean in the classroom, I see.
What’s the way to work around / prepare for distortion like that happening in hindsight?

In my previous reply I tried to explain. If one limiter does NOT have True Peak functionality, it is possible that another one after it that DOES have it, can detect these peaks coming in. Even though digitally nothing goes over 0 dB. As a test you can put two Cubase limiters after each other: I wouldn’t expect any peaks coming out in the second limiter. (But again: why use 2 in a row?)

And ceiling speakers rattling from bass could happen with many signals, also far below 0 dB. A lot depends on the amplification, and 100V line systems do not have built in distortion, they can be very nice sounding also.

Using serial limiters is pretty common, same as serial compression. Reason being that doing several lower amounts of gain reduction results in better transparency and less of the sound of the limiter or compressor from coming through vs. just doing the limiting.