Messa di voce?

If I select two notes and enter p<>p as a dynamic, I would expect the second p to be placed on the second of the notes I selected, but Dorico puts the second p on the note after the note I selected. I don’t understand the logic of this. It also places the maximum aperture of the hairpins at the second note. If I do the same but only select the first note, I do get the second p above the second note but the maximum aperture is at a rhythmically random point (neither on a beat nor halfway between the notes). I haven’t been able to figure out how to change the point of maximum aperture, either in Write mode or in Engrave mode. Dorico calls this a messa di voce hairpin type but if I select Messa di voce inflection in Properties, it changes the <> to a >. I looked through the forum and couldn’t find a way of changing this, either individually or even globally in Preferences, although I need to be able to adjust the aperture point on an individual basis.

Properties panel “Messa di voce INFLECTION” :slight_smile:

I mentioned doing that. It changes the Messa di voce into a decrescendo.

Only initially, you have to keep increasing the left value I think…

At first yes, since it goes to zero, but keep clicking on the up arrow and watch the magic happen.

Aha! Thanks, that works but I’d never have thought to try doing it that way.

Yes, I agree it’s a bit surprising to see the value jump to zero and visually destroy the mdv… :slight_smile: Perhaps a buglet…?

What’s the second setting in Messa di voce inflection for? the one marked with a grace note?

It’s not a bug, but it would be nice if the property could be initialised to something close to the current effective value when it is first set. In Dorico 1.1, it will be much easier to adjust the inflection point in a messa di voce, because a dedicated handle will appear in Write mode that allows you to set the value of the property directly simply by dragging it left or right, or using the key command Alt+left/right arrow.

That’s good news, Daniel, and kind of what I’d been expecting to see. Glad it’s being implemented in 1.1.

I’d like to know that too. Couldn’t figure it out so far.

I find the German name of this property (“messa-di-voce-Tonfall”) misleading. I was looking for this option some weeks ago. In the end I gave it up for the time being as it just didn’t occur to me that this would be what I was looking for. I admit it’s quite difficult to find a good term for this in German.

I’ve never heard anyone use this term in daily life, it’s just a swell, or Schwellton in german…

It is primarily used to describe a specific singing technique where the volume of the voice increases and then decreases on a single note without affecting pitch. In this respect, it is not the same as Schwellton. The term is also used in the instrumental world as a borrowed term, especially amongst baroque instrumentalists.

“Um Verwechslungen mit der Verzierung in der Alten Musik zu vermeiden, empfiehlt das Riemann Musiklexikon, in diesem Fall von „Schwellton“ zu sprechen.”

That is very true, since outside of the vocal realm, it is basically a swell. However, in my experience working with North American baroque players on period instruments, the expression “messa di voce” is used quite extensively by strings and woodwinds, for better of for worse. It’s a habit I guess.

Sure, I didn’t mean to say that the term isn’t in active use, but in more recent times I think it’s more often referred to as a swell. I vividly remember that during the rehearsals of my second symphony, I, as a young and innocent organist, was a bit perplexed at first, when the principal horn approched me with the question: “should this be a swell too, like the others have?” :slight_smile:

Dear Daniel,

Since I never used Dorico 1, I don’t know how it was before, but in 3.5.1, although in Write mode there’s a handle in the middle, neither dragging it, nor using alt-arrow let’s me adjust it.
I initally tried in engrave mode, btw, where the handles cannot be moved either. The inflection property only shows in Engrave mode in the properties panel, though… all in all it’s a little confusing, I would say.

I think unless there are noteheads within the messa di voce’s span, you can’t drag the middle handle - when clicking and dragging dynamics, they always snap to noteheads. You can move dynamics according to the grid by pressing Ctrl/Cmd-Alt/Opt-right or left, including messa di voces, and then drag the start/end handles around.

Thanks, Lillie, for you response, but I think I cannot follow.

My idea was to align the center of the messa di voce with a dashed line. (Here’s the facebook thread where Leo pointed me to the right direction and a solution by editing the inflection property, which works and does what I want: Leo Nicholson
I then found this thread and Daniel’s comment, which I found doesn’t work for me.)

messa di voce

Are you moving it back using the key command? Instead move it to the left using the key command, perhaps by a smaller rhythmic grid duration, then click and drag the start handle back to the note - don’t use the key command on the 2nd move.

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