MIDI notes recorded earlier than they sound

Well i still haven’t received a reply from the query I sent to SB technical support…

I am not talking about tiny timing differences here. A few milliseconds I could live with, but I am talking about much larger distances - take a look at Xtigma’s screenshot. 150ms + is unacceptable.

Yes, it is unacceptable. It is also uncommon that it is that much after all the corrections that have been done by you.
I would now repeat my support request to Steinberg (plus a teensy little grumble about slow service) and also a support request to your soundcard’s site as it looks like something in your rig is so far out that Cubase cannot compensate.

Is there something in common with all you guys that are affected? A circuit board with a common opto-isolation or clock chip maker perhaps?

SB support contacted me yesterday to say they are investigating this. They think it may be something to do with the UAD cards that seem to be common to users reporting the problem.

In the mean time, could I ask that if you think you have NO midi timing problems, to please take this test (thanks xtigma again for this). Maybe you think you have no problems, but my guess is that actually we ALL have this problem, it’s just a matter of degree and most folks don’t notice it because of the small buffer sizes they usually use…

  1. Set your buffer size to something “noticable”, eg 1024 samples
  2. Create an empty project, and add the “Groove Agent One” VSTi and associated MIDI track. Load one of the preset kits (you sill need a sound with a fast attack)
  3. add a group channel
  4. route “Groove Agent” VSTi output to group channel
  5. add an audio track
  6. set inputs of audio track to be the group channel
  7. enable record on the audio track and on Groove Agent MIDI track
  8. start recording
  9. play a single note. this should record on the MIDI and audio tracks simultaneously
  10. stop recording
  11. zoom in to see the waveform / midi

Is recorded MIDI note significantly earlier than the recorded audio from the VSTi ?

Thanks :slight_smile:

Remind me again next week and I’ll have time. :slight_smile:

  1. Set your buffer size to something “noticable”, eg 1024 samples

There’s something about that. With the buffer size being so large I’d expect some discrepancy somewhere due to the latency. Although you would expect the drums to be corrected and the audio to arrive late if anything.
Most people do. as you say, record at lower buffer settings and then would maybe mix at a higher level.
Whether that would be noticeable on the drum tracks? Negligible. I’d expect that any effects would be more influenced by the high buffer rate if applied at the mixing stage.
May be a problem but I’m still unsure if we’re looking in the right place although drums would seem obvious.

Another user here who bites the dust. Tried 6 Demo and it happens again.

In my side it has nothing to see with VSTis. You just load an empty song record MIDI on a track almost exaclty on the beat (i am a drummer) and when you open the sequence the notes haev been recorded some ticks earlier than they shoudl.

How many of us will it take for Steinberg to fix this major issue on a top notch MIDI sequencer like Cubase? Its just freaking unbelievable.

BTW emailed support and no answer at all. Cool.

then how did you get it exactly on the beat?

:astonished: Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

And which other top notch midi sequencers does it work on then?
I’m a really good drummer so I know NONE of us is perfect. :mrgreen:

Every clock (and clock-chip) in the world is slightly out. Even DAb BBC pips are out (late even!?) by half a second to analog radio. The BBC! BAH! I will complain! :mrgreen:
I haven’t got an atomic clock in the house because they cost a few million quid which even I don’t possess.

GPS can give a very good indication of the time :stuck_out_tongue:

So can the sun and a stick. :laughing:

Works perfectly in Reason.

What if you change the driver to ASIO4ALL?
And apply different settings in the “Plug-in delay Compensation” fields?

Reason does it perfectly. Fair enough I’ll take your word on that. On the same system used for Cubase, I presume. OK.
Do you have compensation settings to do in Reason or is it just set up and go?

Ive tried ASIO4ALL - no difference
also “generic low latency ASIO driver” - no difference
and “ASIO directx full duplex driver” - no difference

Here’s what I got from SB tech support:
“I am investigating the issue, the only hint I have at this moment is, that the delay compensation may not work
correctly if you use an UAD2- Card with its VST Plugins.
I have performed several tests, but at this moment it is too early to confirm anything.
Your system info is very helpful. I will send you further information as soon as possible.”

Two things make me skeptical of this hypothesis:

  1. It happens when no UAD plugins are running
  2. it’s been happening since SX3, and I had no Uad cards installed then.

But we can’t rule anything out yet, and in the meantime, if some of you could try the repro on the previous page and report your results we could maybe gather some empirical data… especially from users who have no UAD cards.

It has nothing to see with UAD plugins. It happened to me since v4 with this computer and i never got DSP cards. Moreover, i have a computer at home with a UAD card and the timing there is quite better (always working at very low latencies of course). If support is talking about UAD it seems to me they have no idea on how to solve the issue or they cant reproduce the bug there which i highly doubt.

Regarding if i am good drummer or not, or how do i know i play in time etc. Its just plain simple: when i record midi in Live i never have to edit my notes position, so it records as expected. With cubase the notes are ALWAYS recorded BEFORE the beat.

As a crappy solution I created a Logical preset that moves the notes forward by some ticks and i always run it after pressing stop. You can also set up a macro to execute it automatically after pressing stop but it can mess the whole thing up quickly.

What’s the difference in hardware between the two machines, and what buffer sizes do you use?

They are completely different machines. I think the only thing in common is they have an Intel processor (one is win7 x64 - bad timing- and windows x64 -better timing-).

I have also different controllers in each one of them. M-audio Keystation Pro and AKAI LPD8 (bad timing) and Novation Remote SL 25 (better timing).

Buffers not exceeding 512 samples.

Regarding if i am good drummer or not, or how do i know i play in time etc. Its just plain simple: when i record midi in Live i never have to edit my notes position, so it records as expected. With cubase the notes are ALWAYS recorded BEFORE the beat.

Is that with “Auto quantise” on or off?
There are more than a couple of threads knocking around with :blush: at the end from drummers and others who actually found that they actually had played early.
No players time is perfect. Which is why we need computers and quantising isn’t it?
There are also settings in the Devices Setup for compensating for late and early input.

Though funkydrummer’s problem is a bit different in that he has said that he can actually hear it. For most of us we get drums and if it sounds ok we use it.
I’m still out on whather recording both live electronic sounds and the midi would ever be totally in time as both use different paths through the computer and soundcard. I wouldn’t want to use them as simultaneous tracks at this point in time. And no, in that scenario Reason couldn’t do it. Even Reason can’t defy the laws of physics though I still take your word on your previous post.

Keep on at support as he probably hasn’t a clue at the moment but he’s just given himself some thinking time but at least you know you’ve been noticed.

And a small (larger than I thought it would be) tech note. Although usb / Firewire / PCI and PCIe timings have considerably improved over the last few years there coould still be other data flowing through at the same time that shunts your midi and audio data about which has probably not been taken into account yet by programmers. I mean sometimes users had to plug PCI cards into several slots before they started to work without conflicts. Now conflicts are “invisible” doesn’t mean that low-level conflicts are still going on which affect timing.
After working with drum machines for a long time and remembering that mechanical exact-time feel on them and now, on inputting drums into Cubase, I feel it sounds more “natural”. If my ears are right that means that there is some timing “relaxation” going on in there.
Still doesn’t fix funkydrummer’s problem though. Hm.

No players time is perfect. Which is why we need computers and quantising isn’t it?

Exactly. Only that in this case we are discussing that the player´s time is acceptable and Cubase makes it unacceptable. Quantize was not meant to fix the sequencers bad timing.

There are also settings in the Devices Setup for compensating for late and early input.

Where are those? If you are refering to the timestamp options they are not working. If you are refering to the recording offset option on the System Audio VST panel this affects audio and not MIDI. My problem, unlike Funkydrummer´s i think, is just MIDI related.


Keep on at support as he probably hasn’t a clue at the moment but he’s just given himself some thinking time but at least you know you’ve been noticed.

what do you mean I´ve been noticed? noticed by who and about what? Support didnt answer me at all.

And a small (larger than I thought it would be) tech note. Although usb / Firewire / PCI and PCIe…

Now that you mention it: i had a PCI audio inteface prior to the one i am using now which is Firewire. The problem was exactly the same. I am thinking this issue might be something related to Cubase + my current MIDI devices (Keystation Pro basically) casue this is the only thing that i kept in common in the 2 computer setups where i had this problem. I cant blame entirely the Keystation though, since MIDI is recorded properly in Live as i said earlier.

After working with drum machines for a long time and remembering that mechanical exact-time feel on them and now, on inputting drums into Cubase, I feel it sounds more “natural”.

This proves that you are not having the same problem as me and others. Lucky you! :slight_smile:

It’s not that I can hear the difference, I can calso see it! Look at the attached image. This is the result I get when running thru the steps of rhe repro above (that nobody seems to want to try!)

I had to play in advance of the beat slightly, to get the sound to come one ON the beat.
But cubase enters the audio and the MIDI note the caused the audio at different times in the sequencer!
So when this is played back, it sounds different to how it sounded whilst recording.
When recording, the sound came out on the beat. But if I now export that MIDI, or just play it back, it will sound BEFORE the beat.

When recording there are TWO lots of latencies in play -

  • the first is the delay getting the MIDI data into Cubase.
  • once cubase recognises the MIDI, there is an additional delay as cubase then triggers the VSTi, itself subject to latency due to the PCI soundcard it plays thru. So there is additional delay until the sound comes out.

Once cubase has gotten hold of the MIDI data, there is no excuse for it not being lined up with the audio in the sequencer - it must be a mistake! It knows when I hit the note (because it moves it back in time to that exact spot) and it knows the latency of the VSTi (because export mixdown and playback work perfectly in sync!!)

Cubase fails to take into account that when I originally played the note, I was compensating for the overall 2 - stage latency - input and output - by playing ahead. If I didn’t play ahead, it would sound absolutely horrible whilst recording because the audio would be too late - this wouldmake it impossible to record.

Further to my post above, take a look at this screen cap.
Here’s what happens when I then export the MIDI note. The bottom audio track is the result. It lines up perfectly with the MIDI note, because cubase knew the latency of the VSTi and corrected for it. But this sound is now EARLIER than the sound that was generated during recording (the track above it, which is on the beat)

The exported sound is in exactly the same place as the MIDI note, but the MIDI note was early and cubase didn’t realise it.