MIDI Routing Explain Request. Revised - Help!

Hello,

For the sake of clarity to help me set up my project.
In the Inspector the flow of midi channel data is:

Input Routing – Can select All Midi Inputs or the midi device which may have any combination of midi channels 1-to 16

Input Transformer- if activated. Channel Filtering Pass channel 1 to 16. Only the channel selected passes through.

The channel selection located below the Output Routing determines the channel fed into the VSTi (in my current situation) Can select all Midi channels or any one of 1-16.

Output Routing – a VSTi in my case. Some VSTi have an input channel selection. If no input selection is available as in PadShop then any one (1-16) midi channels get through as determined by the visible number on channel selection located below the Output Routing.

Is this the correct order?

Note: An hour after posting I revised the order.

This sounds right to me. Does it not work?

Some years back on SX3 I believe the Input Transformer when the Pass Channel selected it effected the Input Routing channel.

Cannot recall if the Pass Channel means if there is a Channel 5 it will pass through and not allow any other channel to pass through. OR it will convert any channel to 5 and pass it through as Channel 5. For the later there may be custom preset required to map any channel to in this case Channel 5.

I tested this on my Cubase 6.5 and the when the Input Transformer was activated and the Pass Channel selected let’s say 5 it did nothing. Perhaps somewhere in preferences I need to click on something?

Can you please check if your Input Transformer works in the same fashion I am using it.

Yes, that is how it has always worked… it simply filters out the other channels (doesn’t convert them).

I had suspected that this was the correct answer. I suppose a Midi Transformer user preset could re-map any midi channel to the channel selected? Could you write such a preset?

After trying to route midi channel to see if the Midi Transformer is doing anything it seems that it is not.

I use Bidule a VSTi and within it I can monitor the midi Channels going in and out.

Going back to my original post I am now not sure if the midi routing order is correct.

We’re talking about the Input Transformer, right? Did you actually activate the module (there are tabs for each of the four modules, each with an “On/Off” button).

I suppose a Midi Transformer user preset could re-map any midi channel to the channel selected? Could you write such a preset?

To “selected” channel? Not sure I understand what you mean, but you can remap incoming MIDI to either a new fixed channel, or, for example, offset channels 2 and 3, while leaving the other channels unchanged, etc.

It is easy to get confused between the “Input Transformer,” which is at the top of the Inspector with the little crooked arrow and the “Transformer” midi plugin which goes as an insert in the Inspector insert section.

I get confused all the time … and have to revisit their differences. I note some multitimbral VSTi Midi Instruments will send all channel data to the Track even when the Input Transformer is properly set up to filter all but a particular channel.

But the Transformer plugin will filter properly to a single channel.

It seems to me … possibly inaccurately … that the Transformer plugin limits input to the track, where as the so called Input Transformer, limits output of what is played back on a midi track … the ‘input’ meaning what the recorded midi files sends to the output (instrument) of the track.

Of course, this may be all upside down and backwards. It seems I have to work it out by trial and error everytime I set up a multitimbral MIDI VSTi.

If I’ve helped confuse you, welcome to the club.

Perhaps Vic can further straighten us out.

Como

(just warming up the iron :stuck_out_tongue: )…

(From an old post of mine, about the Input Transformer, the Transformer Insert FX, and the Logical Editor)…

Here are the principal differences between the three modules…

  1. The Logical Editor permanently modifies the already-recorded data inside a MIDI Part (but has no effect on your live playing).
  2. The Transformer Insert FX modifies the data it is receiving from the output of the MIDI track as it is being played back (but the data in the MIDI track itself remains intact). This also has the result that any incoming MIDI from your external keyboard (i.e. MIDI Thru) to that MIDI track will also get modified on its way through to the receiving instrument, although what will eventually get recorded on the MIDI track is NOT modified by the transformer (i.e. it is a playback-only function).
  3. The Input Transformer modifies the data it receives from your external keyboard before sending to the MIDI track, so the MIDI track gets recorded with the modifications. On the other hand, the Input Transformer has no effect on already-recorded data

Hmmm … I’m sure you’re correct, but this doesn’t exactly explain one of my findings.

1.) I have a multitimbral VSTi instrument … for a specific case, Vortex by HGSounds. This instrument contains 12 sequencers, sort of like a groove box or a multitimbral version of StepDesigner. Midi note on messages will trigger each sequence to play and output what ever midi data is in each sequence. The sequencer will loop when it comes to the end of the sequence al long as it continues to receive midi note on.

2.) Each of the 12 instruments can be set to output midi data on any of the 16 midi channels.

3.) I set each instrument to output on separate channels 1 through 12.

4.) I route the VSTi to 12 different tracks, each output to different hardware modules or VSTi. I set the channel selector to the same channel as the sequence in the original MIDI VSTi sequencer. All data from all 12 sequencers comes into each track.

5.) I activate the track’s MIDI Input Filter in the Inspector, set to ‘local,’ with different channel filters for each different channel 1-12 on each of the 12 tracks receiving input from the MIDI VSTi. The midi data from all 12 of the sequencers still comes through on each track despite the Input Filer

6.) If instead I insert the Transformer plugin on each track set to filter out all but one channel … the same type of filter as I used on the Input Transformer, now the track only outputs on the intended channel with the correct stream of midi data from the multitimbral VSTi.

So, I am a bit puzzled when you say “playback only,” because in this case I have not yet recorded any midi data (although that is my ultimate intention). But if I hit the transport bar and trigger the MIDI VSTi instrument either with keyboard or midi track sent to the instrument, all the routing is correct and each voice is discrete.

Perhaps what is going on is that the Input Transformer filters the channel with respect to what will be recorded, but still passes on all channel data to the Inspector MIDI Ouput, whereas the Transformer plugin sits in the channel after the track’s midi output, regardless of whether from the track or from Inspector Midi Input, in the latter case where there is not yet any recorded data? In which case, both would be necessary in order to both monitor output from the MIDI VSTi to the selected sound sources and to limit the MIDI recording to a single channel.

What think you, Vic?

BTW, I’ve always wished there was an option to simply let the Inspector MIDI Channel selector function as filter for everything coming into the track. Would be a lot less confusing.

Como

PS Also, I could swear the MIDI recorded correctly with only the Transformer Plugin filtering the midi and the Input Transformer not activated. But, I’ll have to take a second look.

You’ve found an exception that I wasn’t aware of! :slight_smile:
Indeed, MIDI that is output from a VSTi, arrives at the destination track after the Input Transformer (I shall sleep on that one, but my initial feeling is that it is a bug :wink: )
O.K. there is a workaround (I only tried this with a single instance… haven’t thought through yet whether this would work for all your twelve instruments :wink: ), so long as you have MIDI Yoke or similar…
Instead of routing the output from your sequencer directly to the destination instrument, route it instead to MIDI Yoke Out. Create an extra MIDI track, routed to your destination instrument, with MIDI Yoke as its input, and the Input Transformer on that track.

Thanks for checking it out, Vic.

I would be curious if it’s a bug or not?

I think my current work around (I’ve made templates) using both the Input Transformer and Transformer does the trick.

I do use Toby’s LoopMIDI http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/loopMIDI.html when I want a go at virtual midi cables. Works great in x64.

Como

Hi Como,
yes, it is “normal” that it would work with the Transformer Insert (because it is applied later in the path). The only possibly inconvenience being that, if you needed to record on to each of those destination tracks, the recorded data isn’t filtered/channelized.
Being on Mac here, I only know from reading, here and there, that MIDI Yoke doesn’t work in 64-bit (is that right?), but I can never remember the names of newer applications that can handle 64-bit. On Mac, we use Apple’s own IAC Bus. I do wish that Steinberg would bring back “MROS” (from the VST5 days)… an internal loopback system, that also had the advantage of being cross-platform.

Trying to do reverse engineering to figure out the midi channel path is not easy and in the process I may be mistaken.

In SX3 I had no issues with the Input Transformer. (BTW I did not get it confused with the “insert” Transformer) But again my memory could be failing me here. I am trying to duplicate my set up from years ago. I have a new Computer and OS but the same software but updated but the identical midi keyboards.

vic_france, I am very embarrassed to say I was not activating the tab in the Input Transformer. Como Baila, glad you joined the discussion.

My revised Midi Routing Order: Bold = new additions

Input Routing – Can select All Midi Inputs or the midi device which may have any combination of midi channels 1-to 16

Input Transformer- if activated. Channel Filtering Pass channel 1 to 16. Only the channel selected passes through. If the Input transformer is activated channel selection located below the Output Routing is ignored if set at “Any”.

The channel selection located below the Output Routing determines the channel fed into the VSTi (in my current situation) You can select all Midi channels or any one of 1-16. It will re-map any midi channel received from the Input Routing to the channel selected on the drop down menu below the Output Routing. On the other hand if “Any” is selected here the governing channel is from the Input Transformer.

Output Routing – a VSTi in my case. Some VSTi have an input channel selection. If no input selection is available as in PadShop then any one (1-16) midi channels get through as determined by the visible number on channel selection located below the Output Routing except when “Any” is selected.

Ideally the Input Transformer button and the channel selection menu located below the Output Routing both should be located between the Input Routing and the Output Routing Menus. This will indicate the direction of the midi routing. No?

Sorry for the complex description. I tried to make it simple but completely failed. A schematic would do wonders here. I do wonder if I got it right this time.

I am beginning to think that Bidule was lying to me about the midi monitoring. Is there a VSTi that one can insert that will only display the midi information? I am having better luck with EnergyXT v2.

The post herewith in was deleted by me as the unrelated problem discussed was resolved elsewhere.

I have learned a few things :astonished: and in the process I want to let future readers know:

The Cubase Input Transformer, Input routing and Output Routing work fine at least in the way I use them.

Bidule works just fine in the way I was using it.

The midi routing I mentioned in my 29 Jul 2012 post is accurate as far as I can tell, thought a better written explanation or a diagram would be great to help future Cubase users.