Minor 9 major 7 chord symbols not working (mi9(ma7)

Always major.

I think my mistake was looking for an interval above the root, from figured bass I suppose – but if I understand what you are saying maj or min refers to the preceding letter defining the chord, and the following number, denoting the scale degree added, is always minor if 7 or major if 6 (or anything else?) and is qualified by #, b, +, o i.e. sharpened, flattened, augmented or diminished if need be.

So Abm6 in your example is A flat minor with a major sixth, not A flat major with a minor sixth which would be Ab(b6) and A flat augmented sixth would be Ab(+6).

Am I right in assuming that tonic, dominant, sub-dominant and 11th are by default perfect and can only be augmented or diminished - and that the supertonic, mediant, submediant, 9th and 13th are by default major and can be augmented, flattened or diminished – and that the 7th is by default minor and can also be augmented, flattened or diminished?

PS. I still think all 6th chords look like first inversions of other chords…

No. The extension is usually never modified. The alteration states the modifications after the extension. The older style of using C+7 to mean C dominant augmented is generally no longer used, even though augmented could refer to the quality. C7(#5) or C7+5 or other variants are now more correct.

How would you have an augmented 6th in a chord symbol? I’ve never seen this chord ever except perhaps in John Mehegan’s books from the 1950s that sort of mix chord symbol nomenclature and figured bass. (A German augmented 6th chord would typically just be notated as a tritone sub in chord symbols.)

We’re pretty OT, but there are tons of sites that describe basic chord symbol nomenclature. There’s no need to reinvent the system. About 5 years ago or so I took a dive into researching how the chord symbol system came about in the first place. I sort of struck out, but it possibly came from turn of the century Ukulele notation. There are plenty of chord symbols in this Ukulele method book from 1917 for example. I have a few hundred Tune-Dex cards like this so our modern chord symbol system was pretty well set by 1940 or so:

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Maybe OT, but talking about m(b6) and x(b6) chord, look at the score below, there is no mention of m(b6) but rather an m(#5):

As a jazz musician who’s been playing for 30 years, I’ve never come across a score where an arranger mentioned a (b6) or m(b6) chord.

@FredGUnn: I would define this chord as a voicing of an Fmaj7(#5) than a A(b6) which looks odd to me.

Have you noticed something interesting about that A(b6) chord? If you play that chord slowly repeatedly, it tends to create some modal temperament calling of an exotic pentatonic Indian scale. For example, you might get some scale like:
A C# E F A F E C# B A
or:
A C# E F A F E C# Bb A
without even needing to include the M2nd (B) or m2nd (Bb).
If in modal context, yes I think one might notate A(b6) but not to be used with functional harmony and tonal system. This just my humble opinion.

I guess it depends on context. I think I would call the ascending line in I Remember April Gm - Gm(#5) - Gm6 …

… but the chord where the walking starts in Delfeayo’s Dilemma I would definitely call Abm9(b6).

Just depends I guess.

hmmm… interesting! or maybe Abm9(b13)…as you said, it all depends on one’s point of view. I usually have tendency to think about b13 in minor rather about b6…I don’t know why hahaha!

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In her score to Hang Gliding, Maria Schneider calls this chord Dm7(b13).

Several different ways of thinking about it I guess.

EDIT: I wrote a tune a while back where the Vamp section alternates between Am9 and F/A, so that’s yet another way to think of it too I suppose.

Another EDIT: Kenny Dorham called the vamp here Gbmaj7/Bb - Gbmaj7(b5)/Bb in Escapade so that’s sort of another way to go about it.

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I think one can argue the merits of whether or not a mi(b6) chord should or should not be labeled as such (I have had plenty of occasions to use b6 chord labels, especially to describe a voice-leading pattern). But I think it is much harder to argue about the basic and near-universally recognized syntax involved in lead sheet symbols. There seems to me little reason to reinvent a system that works as well as it does. But hey, if it’s something one wants to play with, that’s totally cool if you don’t mind that others will not be able to sight read the charts.

To get back to the original topic, Dorico really should fix the syntax in the popover to allow Gmi9ma7 and NOT Gmi(ma9). Not a huge priority, but consistency is good.

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A(b6)

I can only say what I would notate.
I would notate it the way I would understand it most easily afterwards.
I think a more common chord term in combination with a special bass note easier to read.

Instead of A(b6) I would notate Fmaj7(#5) / A.

The unofficial “rule” is actually that simplicity, which is easy to read, takes precedence over music-theoretical accuracy.

Further example:
Instead of G9(sus4)(no5th) I would notate F / G.

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In isolation, this makes sense of course. But if, on the other hand, you have a series of chords as follows: A Ama7 A6 A(b6) A, I would argue that it can be clearer to use A(b6) to show the linear component. I believe that voice-leading is the underlying component that makes any series of chords musically effective, so there are cases where I think it’s important to convey that detail.

Another example: I would not typically write Gmi Abma7/C F7 Bbma7 Ebma7, but instead would normally write Gmi Cmi(b6) F7 Bbma7 Ebma7 to show the underlying falling fifth/step sequence with respect to the roots of the chords, not the bass notes.

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Yes, you’re right.
This rule you’re talking about also fits in with the special chord term that is being discussed here if you want to represent the chromatic between the chords well:

Gm / Gm#7 / Gm7 / Gm6

Or Gm / Gm(maj7) / Gm7 / C7 which comes up all the time too.

Dizzy

Newk

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What we call: ‘CESH’ Chromatic Elaboration of Static Harmony.

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Yes, long live the chromatic! :smiley:

Cool changes here too. The bass goes down chromatically on the second chord:

Cmaj7 / B7 / …

Mani di velluto - Nando De Luca - 1979

I think, Charly Parker & Dizzy play that tune in heaven every day while jumping from cloud to cloud.

As I mentioned all chords with a sixth are inherently ambiguous regardless of chord symbol syntax because they are always first inversions of other chords – apart from the augmented sixth chord which was commonly used in the baroque period, obviously predating chord symbols, although it was rendered in figured bass with a slash through the 6 (I think).

Since impressionism and jazz, chord symbol syntax has become increasingly ambiguous especially when enharmonics and inversions are taken in account, and is completely unusable in serialism.

From FredGUnn’s posts -

I remember April sounds like the James Bond chords Gm – Eb – Eø 7 - Eb all over pedal G (or first inversions for Eb – Eø7 - Eb)

Delfeayo’s Dilemma Abm9(b6) is enharmonically Emaj7(#11)/G#

Hang Gliding Dm7(b13) – Bbmaj7(9)/D?

Escapade Gbmaj7/Bb is preferable to Bbm(b6). Perhaps the inversion was used here because the b5 of Gb in the following chord would become the diminished 3rd in Bbm (enharmonically 9th)

It seems to me that the syntax of an adjusted added note can sometimes depend on whether the original note is still present or has been replaced. For example, I have seen the b10th referred to in blues notation when the original major third is also there – without the major 3rd the chord simply becomes minor.

And why b10th not #9th? Perhaps because blues and Middle Eastern music tends to resolve down and a # suggests a leading note upward resolution.

Similarly the b5th resolves down in a bluesy way whereas its enharmonic equivalent the #4th resolves upwards as used in the Baroque augmented 6th chord.

Great thread BTW – harmonic pedantry of this magnitude makes my heart sing…

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Someone has to solo over this though. Abmaj9+11 resolving to Abm9(b6) makes a lot more sense to the soloist than Abmaj9+11 going to Emaj+11/G#. For solos, language always wins out over chord-scales. Playing Abm language is going to fit better than Emaj language at that point in the tune, even if the scales are basically the same.

I was just showing how Maria notated it. She was definitely thinking Dm7(b13) there since that’s what she wrote instead of a chord over a bass note.

At least in the US, this is almost always referred to as a #9 and not b10. This holds regardless of the enharmonic spelling. (i.e. D# or Eb on a C7#9 are still going to be referred to as #9)

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Mic drop. :wink:

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Haha! I just meant this tune is tricky enough with the odd phrase structure and the single 3/4 bar in the form, that the chords don’t need to be overcomplicated, even if the scales are the same. It’s not an Analysis class, someone actually has to play on them! Plus this tune is often played much faster of course too. Here’s Kenny’s version:

What you label as three different chord “roots” in “I’ll Remember April” is really just a succession of melodic activations of first a G major chord (bars 1–4), then G minor (5–8). So it’s not “really” G - Ebaug/G - Emin/G - Ebaug/G - Gmin - Eb/G - Eø 7/G - Eb/G in a functional musical sense.

Handy “chord-Scale” equivalents aside, though, I think you’re on to something when you mention the G pedal in the first eight bars underneath first the “melodically activated” G major then the G minor.

(Ahem) “Rooting” both chords on Ab (which can imply a Ab/Eb “power chord” pedal) in “Delfeayo’s Dilemma” seems to be the point of it. (I don’t hear it “resolving,” as @FredGUnn does, but as a sort of oscillation of two different “flavors of Ab.”) As an experiment, @Martin_Kennedy, try playing Ab/Eb in the bass while soloing over the two chords, then alternate Ab/Eb and G#/E. Really different harmonic quality and musical effect! (Same is true when rooting the Schneider on D/A vs D/Bb)

I think as often as possible — given the hoops we have to jump through to cram things into tertian labels when we move beyond really basic ii - V - I kinds of functional progressions into the more contrapuntal chords of post-bop harmony — we should make choices of chord symbols that are “about” what musical meaning of the chord sonority is.

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Maybe resolving wasn’t the right word. Target maybe? Making a clear distinction between major and minor is one of the more important goals for the improviser on this section of the form. The solo form is down 1/2 step from the head, so the first chord is Gmaj7(#11). Wynton opens his solo with this line that clearly makes a strong move from the major 7th to the minor:

On Kenny’s version, he opens with a similar line to Wynton’s but he aims for the minor 3rd:


The minor chords definitely sound like minors to me and not some sort of major chord over another root. Both Wynton and Kenny aim for a “color tone” to show the clear progression.

Yep!!!

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