Wait, what? You have to pay for it? 
We used to say “chewing gum and cigarettes” but, at today’s prices for those, I don’t even think that fits. I’m going with 'bag of peanuts." 
Mattias, that’s so true about the downward race. Unpaid “internships,” people shopping around for offering “participation deals” (work now, maybe get paid later, and, of course, they never pay. Never fell for one of those, but they do get shopped around). You lower the barriers to entry and you get lots more entrants, you make production as automatic as possible, popularize styles that based on the automatic approach. Interesting times. On the other hand, I just saw a video about “the return of open reel” – one album (15 i.p.s. 1/4" tape on two reels) costs about as much as a new Cubase Pro license.
To the OP: Thanks for posting about this and whatever someone wants to do is OK. I might have sounded like I was throwing cold water on the project, I don’t want to do that. Here’s the thing. You have to think about about work rules, fair rates and don’t let yourself be taken advantage of. If you’re Producing, then charge for it and demand a Production agreement. Don’t do “free estimates” for people trying to figure out how to do production estimates. If you’re doing work for hire, then try to establish a livable hourly rate and bill for your hours, including meal breaks, and overtime for hours worked beyond 8 or 10 hours per day. And, everything else – equipment rental/cartage, players, talent, etc. This isn’t Wal-Mart, not just anyone can do this. You’ve no doubt worked many hours to get to where you are, don’t let yourself be taken advantage of. Good luck with your work. I hope things go well for you. Thanks, again, for posting about this here.
That will become untrue though. People in general lack enough vision/imagination to see their livelihoods be threatened by future technology, but mark my words; it’s just a matter of time before we’re essentially obsolete (on that Wal-Mart level).
For reference; I grew up playing a wind instrument as a child. I took lessons. I learned how to read music. I played in ensembles. I learned how to transcribe. I then went to Berklee. I got a couple of degrees. I wasn’t the best, but I knew some things about music. Nowadays if you want a chord progression technology essentially takes care of everything for you. And it lays down a drum beat. And you can change key/tempo on the fly… mixing/mastering is just around the corner, and so is more of the composition / “production” part.
People, mostly young people, what everything “now” and with as little effort as possible. The result of this is less knowledge and that technology evolves so that indeed “anyone” can do it. The result of that is that the price drops to bottom-barrel and people can’t make a living off of it any longer.
It’s called progress… by some…
The way you describe it, the vocation of “musician” will soon join all the other obsolete professions that have faded away and become irrelevant through the ages when the demand for the basic product became outdated/unnecessary, no matter how accomplished the employed professional was in their field (“C. Hampton and Sons - voted best Buggy Whip Maker in Harleston Co., 1904, 1905, 1906!”).
Maybe a better analogy is the daredevil sky pilots of the 1920s, or those making the first solo trans-Atlantic flights. Now any yahoo and his brother can get on a plane and make the same journey … Charles Lindbergh’s skills have no value nowadays, just as you perhaps are suggesting being a master composer or mixer may have no value in the future.
I suppose that future is entirely possible … maybe one day everyone will be able to push a blue button for verse generation and a red one for chorus, and generate a song indistinguishable from one composed and performed by a “master musician/engineer” of today. And maybe the only “stars” in the future will be those few that can sing and play beautifully right in front of you without any technology or electronics … back to the days of the Old Testament where the ability to sing and play lyre/lute beautifully for the King was honored, and music really was pretty much completely unimportant to everyone else! One thing to keep in mind … the “need” for engineers and music technicians is a fairly current one in the big scheme of things … it didn’t exist before the early years of last century. Maybe what we consider “the norm” now, where engineers’ and producers’ skills are valued and have value, is just a tiny little footnote of a technology bubble that will wind up having a lifetime of about 100 years (from Edison to … just a few years from now?) - and maybe it seems like “that is the way it should be, of course!” to us only because it’s the only thing we’ve ever known.
Is that future inevitable? What will it take for a different outcome? I wish I knew! One thing for sure … the “race to the bottom” wage is absolutely inevitable … the mixer who needs to buy food isn’t going to let the long-term effects on his career or the field in general keep him from charging $20/track. Heck, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen less than $50 a track advertised on line already (has anyone tried any of those, just to see the quality of the results?).
So, MattiasNYC - I started this post thinking I was going to argue you out of your bleak predictions … and am ending it thinking you just may be right … 
lol…
Well, if it’s any consolation I think there’ll always be a niche market for the best of the best in any field. Some people will pay a premium for those goods/services, either because they “get it” or want the “best” quality, or simply because it’s fashionable within that circle of people. So I think we’ll have live music played by great live musicians for quite some time, but I think that market will shrink a bit more, and more importantly the “middle” will just wither and die.
So… better sharpen them chops eh?
The loop-based, pattern/sample-based world (Acid/Abelton) makes good money for some, it seems, but, it is also, part of that race to the bottom. With a few t-bytes of samples and instruments and plug-ins someone with even rudimentary musical training can be almost immediately “in the ball park” for those styles. And, since how artists look is far more important that how they actually play or sing, the “package” sells.
That said, there are some fantastically talented new players emerging all the time, like bassist, Tal Wilkenfeld, for example. I see bands and performers all the time with outstanding talent in many styles of music. Those reach, what, 4 per cent of “the market?”
Mattias, from the quality of your posts, I’m not at all surprised to hear you’re a Berklee graduate. My late brother started there and then worked at Berklee for years, Piano Maintenance Director. He ended up with a Yale MBA, worked for Yamaha and was also a Registered Piano Technician; and he played great bass, touring and recording with David Bromberg at one point. He was my first music teacher. I have another relative who’s a graduate and works as a professional bassist.
Thanks for all your excellent posts.
I guess we should make internships and volunteering illegal since they get paid nothing.
Why does there have to be an empty void between working for free (volunteering/internships) and minimum wage? Why not just let the market set the values?
Everyone can decide for themselves if something is worth it or not. I’m assuming you guys live in places where the cost of living is very high. However, there are many parts of the world where the low cost of living makes the job sustainable. And if you have no credits to your name, why not use it as an opportunity to build your portfolio so you have more leverage in the future to get higher paying jobs? Or after you’ve proven your worth and your employer is dependent on you, demand a pay increase? Or if you get paid a small proportion of the businesses total revenue, why not just help expand the total revenue to increase your pay instead of trying to take a larger proportion of the revenue.
The lack of creative thinking and responsibility here is pathetic. Of course, if you already get paid more, then just don’t apply for the job. Why would you even bother wasting time on this? You complaining about the pay rate of this job is like a regional store supervisor finding a job wanted posting in the paper for cashier, and then getting all hung up on it and complaining about how it’s only paying minimum wage… the easy solution in that case is… don’t apply. That cashier may get paid minimum wage now, but he can work his way up to some kind of shift leader position, then manager, then store supervisor, then regional supervisor, etc… in time, that person can make the same money as you, but they wouldn’t have that opportunity if there was no initial job to get started with. Because no one wants to hire a regional supervisor who has no job experience.
Bottom line: You have to climb. You have to grind and work hard. You don’t just get stuff because you want it. No handouts. No freebies.
No, we’re talking about fairness, how the business has evolved and devolved, real issues. As far as “no handouts” and “no freebies” that is of course untrue. I think it would be way off topic to go into that, here. This is the Cubase Forum and I prefer to stay on Cubase related topics.
I ended up saying that I was glad to hear about the channel and that the OP had put up the post about it. But, I’m not backing off on anything I said about the business or people being taken advantage of. The Music Business in particular is one of the worst examples of that happening.
I do free work. I do it for things I care about. I select several projects a year that I think I can offer something to and do the work. I work harder and give me to some of those jobs than I do to any typical work day with whoever. I do ENG/EFP production sound and work, on average, about 200 days a year. That’s hard work my friend.
+1
(See some stills from the Mix for Black Panther, or the recording of the cast album of The Band’s Visit).
Internships actually are required to pay in some states IF the intern ends up performing work that otherwise would be done by someone who would get paid.
Well, to nit-pick, there will by definition have to be a space between “free” and “minimum wage”. What you are saying is basically: “Why do we have to have minimum wage?”
All you have to do is educate yourself on more progressive nations, such as those in northern Europe for example (during roughly the 1950s-1990s), to see the benefits in not letting the market set all prices. Again: Education.
So think about the above then for a second: You are the one saying companies should be allowed to get labor for free.
How on earth do you get from that to implying that people wanting to work, but also get paid for it, are the ones receiving “handouts” or “freebies”?..
I think you’ve had too much Kool-Aid…
I explained already what the problem often is with working for low to no pay. The problem is that the expectation is that that’s what you charge, i.e. ‘little’ or ‘nothing’. Trust me, I’ve done my fair share of low-/no-pay, and not even once has someone who got a deal come back to me with something better. Not once. Even if they moved up in the world so to speak. It just doesn’t seem to happen for several reasons.
As for “help expand the total revenue to increase your pay”… You do understand the concept of a ratio, yes? You can’t, by definition, work more than you can, physically. So you can’t increase the revenue for someone else by working more and simultaneously automatically get a larger proportional share of the revenue. That’s not how a “ratio” works. Look:
25% of $40,000 revenue is $10,000.
25% of $80,000 revenue is $20,000.
What if those initial 25% was equal to “full time” labor? Then, by definition, you are not increasing your proportion (first of all), and more importantly not even increasing your profits - because you can only work a maximum amount of time (a maximum you already reached).
Simple mathematics.
To me it just looks like you’re upset because people don’t agree with you.
Secondly, do you think it’s “creative” to undercut other people when providing a service??? It’s old news. And it’s a race to the bottom, that’s all it is.
And what “responsibility” has to do with anything I have no idea.
You just compared two different types of work, not the same type of work. The analogy doesn’t work.
Of course there’s another problem with your analogy: Can the job of “store supervisor” be done remotely? If the answer is ‘no’, then it’s not relevant here.
Well said, Mattias.
–
Random thoughts, more or less on topic. (Lounge thread, imho, at this point).
Scenario: New Client, unknown person/company, calls and asks for “low rate on this job and we’ll pay your regular rate on the next one.”
Response: Sorry, no. (Because the promised “next job” never comes. Learned that the hard way).
S: Long Term Client: “We’re a little tight on this one, can you give us X hours for X rate (somewhat lower than normal), rather than Y Hours and Y Rate (normal rate)?”
R: Sure, (assuming I was available)
S: Friend calls: “We’re doing a job for X do-good group, or similar, can you help on it.?”
R: Sure, if I can.
S: B/S “Participation Deals” – Offers of payment based on royalties. “You’re part of the project” – Those never make money and are often bottom feeder production companies that 1) don’t know what they are doing, 2) are putting out trash projects that can’t get funded but they “believe” in them.
R: Avoid at all times.
S: We have a big Youtube channel with millions of viewers, but we need to pay you almost nothing for working for us. It will help get you “exposure.”
R: If they have “millions of viewers” why are they paying such a low rate? Is that really the kind of “exposure” you want? The only thing you’re getting exposed to is abuse.
Engineering and even production is labor, blue collar work, work for hire. Tom Dowd, who was a high-level engineer and worked on the Manhattan Project, did all his recording and producing as “work for hire.” All we have is our time, equipment, studios and skills. If you do “race to the bottom” that’s where you’ll end up. Charge what you’re worth or do something else.
Review the history of labor and realize you are a worker, you’ll figure out who’s on your side and who isn’t.
Make as much money as you can, no issue with that. Cut a real production deal on a project, do budgets and estimates so you know your numbers. It sucks to also have to an attorney as well as everything else, but, that’s the playing field. If you want a real deal you have to get familiar with how they work. Bobby Owsinski’s Music Production Blog has a course on lots of this end of the business. Few get them. Will you be one? Not if you don’t know how they work. And, if you don’t, people who do are there and some, the sharks, may try to take advantage of you.
Try not to get ripped off. Luck is a big factor in things. Make connections. Know what you’re doing, own your errors but don’t let anyone put the bag on you. Assert yourself when you need to, shut-up and listen carefully to what people say. Work hard. Take breaks. Be friendly, be real, but have no attitude.
-30-
+1
word.
Thank you.
P.S. – Posted link in the lounge from Digital Music News on contracts with some examples.
P.P.S. – Now returning to Brazil.
ROTFLLLLLLLLLLLL
That’s me figuring out Transpose Track! (which I’ve mostly done, I think – interesting tool, great on audio clips).
The whole point of an internship is that you do work for free in exchange for work experience. Employers don’t want to hire people without experience, and you can’t get experience unless an employer hires you. This is a paradox, and the only way around this is through working for free to the point of being hire-able. Now, before you go off on how you think that is unfair… think about this… how often to people get paid to go to school? Never (Yeah, yeah, some people get student loans or grants, but that only exists to partially offset the costs of school, so it’s not for profit). So, instead of thinking like a lefty democrat who just wants free stuff all the time, you should just change your mindset. Internships, apprenticeships, etc… are like school (and actually much better than school for most professions).
That’s correct. That’s exactly what I’m saying, no basically about it. lmfao
False. I’m saying that people should be able to negotiate their own employment. I’m saying that it should be ‘possible’ to work for free. I also think that any person should be able to ‘not work for free’. I think you should be able to ask for whatever wage you want and I think the employer should be able to hire you or not hire you.
And I think you’ve watched too much liberal media.
In a free market, you will get paid for the value of your work. If your work is not that valuable, and yet you want to get paid above what the market would normally pay you, then yes, you are looking for handouts.
This is why you need to have experience and prove your worth. Employers take on risk every time they hire someone. They’re investing time and money into you. Employers shouldn’t be forced to pay everyone equally regardless of skill or reliability.
Have you ever considered that maybe you’re just not that good at what you do?
lol what? This is so simple. You stated how simple it was yourself:
25% of $40,000 revenue is $10,000.
25% of $80,000 revenue is $20,000.
This fallacy you’re making is that you have to work more hours for your company to make more revenue. This is simple stuff.
This is literally how investors make money. They invest in companies for a share of the company profits… the more the company makes, the more they make.
And of course, this concept applied to employees already exists. Some companies usually do give their employees a percentage of company profits. If the work you provide to the company is an asset to the company and grows the total revenue, then as the company grows, you get paid more. This creates more incentive for you to do good work.
No, I’m upset because you’re rude, and you hijacked this thread to push your own political ideology.
You’re just making me essentially repeat myself. An employer doesn’t owe you ANYTHING. YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SOMEONE’S MONEY SIMPLY FOR EXISTING. There is no undercut, because you are entitled to 0% of my money.
Going to school is literally doing work for free to get better at something. I presume you don’t have an issue with schools not paying the students instead of charging them, right? If not, then why would you have an issue when an employer offers practical experience (which is far more valuable than a degree) in exchange for your time?
Again, I think your mindset is wrong. You don’t see doing work and gaining experience as education or training or learning. There is this leftist mindset out in the world now that says school is the only way people can learn, and it’s absolute 100% dead wrong. In fact, people learn more by actually doing than just reading about doing, which is why employers value experience more than “education”.
False. That’s completely irrelevant.
First of all, the analogy is based on the job of “cashier”, not “store supervisor”. “Store Supervisor” is simply your current position, and has not come into question at all in the analogy. Second, so what? Remotely or non-remotely, it’s the same issue. The only factor that would change is the pool size of the people applying for the job, and that doesn’t change the point of the analogy at all.
False. Again, that’s more flawed logic. You said something but didn’t have a logical way to explain it.
Regardless of what you think of the analogy, the point you should take away is this:
You should not get upset because someone is offering a job that is beneath you and comes with a lower salary than you would expect for yourself.
If you think the job is beneath you, then accept that the job is beneath you and move on. Either find work with a different employer or work independently.
And I’ll leave it on this…
School (up until doctorate/pHD)
Doing work that positively impacts you and no one else with a net NEGATIVE financial impact on you.
Free Internship/Apprenticeship
Doing work that positively impacts you AND others with a net NEUTRAL financial impact on you.
Four and a half months later… a long time to ‘fume’…