Mixing Explained Article

The level of 0dB has something to do with the loudness war in my opinion. Surely is about adjusting dynamic and increasing loudness. But what to increase loudness means if not to rise up the fader and then the peaks get around -1dB and then to 0dB when distortions begin, and begin even before 0dB.
And if we continue to raise the fader of the master bus the peaks go above. Then the 0dB limit is very related to loudness war because, if we don’ to go till there deliberately to obtain distortion in order to get a certain distorted sound, every time that our peaks pass that limit because we want to make things louder we enter deliberately in the distortion zone just to get things louder. As we approach that 0 the negative effects of the loudness war increase.
As many tutorials say and also the Waves website, some Plugins don’t react very well with hot signals…and this is the reason why is not exactly the same thing to lower the fader of the master bus by the mastering engineer. Instead to keep things lower make sense, because this functioning of some plugins, both in the individual tracks and in the master bus, because often one applies at least a compressor on the master bus, I think it is prudent at the mixing stage to keep the levels at a lower level as waves site suggest. It makes sense because we now there is not a real advantage in approaching to 0 in terms of dynamic range, because in 24 bit digital recordings doesn’t maximize the signal to noise ratio, as explained in the following article

“The only advantage to recording with less headroom is to maximise the recording system’s signal-noise ratio, but there’s no point if the source’s signal-noise ratio is significantly worse than the recording system’s, and it will tend to be that way with most analogue synth signals, or any acoustic instrument recorded with a mic in a normal acoustic space. The analogue electronic noise floor or the acoustic ambience will completely swamp the digital recording system’s noise floor anyway……Analogue equipment is designed to clip at about +24dBu, so, in other words, the system was engineered to provide around 20dB of headroom above 0VU. It’s just that the metering systems we use with analogue don’t show that headroom margin, so we forget it’s there. Digital meters do show it, but so many people don’t understand what headroom is for, and so feel the need to peak everything to the top of the meter anyway. This makes it really hard to record live performances, makes mixing needlessly challenging and stresses the analogue monitoring chain that was never designed to cope with +20dBu signal levels all the time.
By recording in a digital system with a signal level averaging around -18 or-20 dBFS, you are simply replicating the same headroom margin as was always standard in analogue systems, and that headroom margin was arrived at through 100 years of development for very good practical reasons.”
Source:
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-much-headroom-should-i-leave-24-bit-recording

there is also an interesting discussion on the forum on this subject of gain staging I mean especially the oldest posts of it

I think Mattias you are definitely more prepared then me in all these matters and many of your objections were useful and correct. What I don’t understand is: if there is no reason to keep the tracks level low with peaks around -3 -6dB why plugin manufacturers and books and articles of production magazines give this advice? I don’t have clear answers and I remain perplex on the matter. I think is just a matter of safety margins….a civil engineer knows that the concrete can resist that weight, but when is building a house it doesn’t make sense to test the limits…there are safety margins, it is a common principle of every science.

But you don’t “win” the loudness war by moving your maximum sample peak to 0dBFS from -2dBFS for example. You make far bigger differences by increasing the loudness by other means. If you give it some thought it’s really pretty self-explanatory: We got 16-bit CDs and they got louder and louder, but all CDs have the same maximum sample peak value of 0dBFS. This means that any loudness that we got was not by approaching 0dBFS.

I think the “proper” way to do this cleanly is to stay away from clipping to create loudness and instead create loudness through other means. Every single time I master music I stay away from 0dBFS and never have True Peak values above 0. I use a loudness maximizer to increase loudness instead.

Obviously lowering the mater fader lowers the loudness of the resulting file, but when we’re talking loudness wars the assumption is that the master is close to zero and then loudness maximizing is doing the rest.

  1. It depends on their DAW. If the inserts are post-fader then they can just turn it down.
  2. If the inserts are pre-fader then they can still lower the signal using a plugin or input trim or clip gain.

It’s just not a big issue.

But in that same Waves article they actually also write “Here’s a nice tip: Yoad Nevo often begins by inserting a Waves Q1 (a simple single-band equalizer, included as a component of the Q10 Equalizer) as the first plugin in his mastering chain, yet leaving it completely flat. He then uses its level control to lower both stereo channels by 6 dB in order to leave sufficient headroom for the other processes he’ll be adding later in the chain. You can actually use any plugin for this purpose, so long as it provides a stereo level control and does not color the sound.”

Exactly what I was saying.

It’s probably because first of all some people still try to record hot for no good reason, and so they get nervous when they see “only” peaks of -10dBFS or whatever and if they then start pushing toward -3/-2dBFS it’s much easier to clip the input. A typical scenario is having a musician test the mic and setting levels without a decent safety margin, and then when the musician actually plays for real (when we hit “record”) they end up playing louder than when you were just checking levels. So just in general it’s good to not worry about recording hot and that probably means that peaks end up being in the -10 to -6dBFS range, maybe a bit higher.

The other reason is purely practical for mixing, where some people keep adding sounds and eventually the master clips. With lower peaks that happens ‘later’ or not at all. Of course any experienced mix engineer keeps an eye and ear open for that all the time so it’s again not a big deal, and in addition to that we typically compress the dynamic range and thus lower the crest factor (lower peaks) which then means getting some of that headroom back on that channel (ignoring makeup gain for a second). So again that’s possibly why.

But lastly I’ll just say again, in different words: People have to be a bit more attentive when reading those articles and guides because sometimes it looks like they’re saying one thing but they really aren’t. There’s a huge difference between recording with average levels at about -18 to -22dBFS versus the peaks at those levels, yet some people recommend the latter because that’s what they thought they read.

“There’s a huge difference between recording with average levels at about -18 to -22dBFS versus the peaks at those levels”
Sure, no doubt. Sometimes we don’t use the proper terms (as I am just a beginner on these matters) sometimes our explanations are not clear enough and we can be misunderstood as when I said
“As many tutorials say and also the Waves website, some Plugins don’t react very well with hot signals…and this is the reason why is not exactly the same thing to lower the fader of the master bus by the mastering engineer.”

I meant that it is not the same with this meaning: Surely the master engineer can apply some tricks as a plugin to lower the output.
But I was saying this from the point of view of mixing, I was speaking about the plugins in the mixing process: if I mix too hot and the plugins in the mix are not receiving the signals at an appropriate level the mix is not at his best and the choices at the mix level are already compromised. And the master engineer can lower the gain, but can not fix all the errors of a mix that is not good and lacks clarity because the signals are already too hot and compressed and distorted because the one who mixed already run toward loudness instead toward a good sound and didn’t leave sufficient headroom.

" We got 16-bit CDs and they got louder and louder, but all CDs have the same maximum sample peak value of 0dBFS. This means that any loudness that we got was not by approaching 0dBFS."

I have a question here. I didn’t check the Cds, I believe you. But for streaming services if happens that if I download a music file from YouTube or other services…I don’ t mean amateurish music but top contemporary hits of Ed Sheran, Adele…and I import them in Cubase as a reference track (bad practice I know…we should use lossless files…) with my fader set to 0, ALL the songs have peaks that go above 0dBFS in the red zone…and my explanations were based on this observation

Ok, well it really looked as if you were talking about mastering…

But again you have to be clear what you’re talking about. If you’re literally talking about headroom during mixing then the channels have a tremendous amount of headroom, far higher than we need, because of floating point processing. If you’re talking about individual plugins distorting because they’re programmed to then that doesn’t ‘follow’ 0dBFS, it ‘follows’ whatever reference nominal level the programmer has decided on. That’s most likely going to be an average level like -18dBFS, not peak level.

And if you’re talking about the final output on the master then we’re back to talking about what to deliver to the mastering engineer and that’s different from the mix. The standard advice to not clip the output always applies.

Using True Peak metering you can see they all go somewhat above 0dBFS, but sample peak is limited to exactly 0dBFS and can never be higher. That means that in order to get the signal louder you have to do something other than reaching 0dBFS on individual samples. If a super-loud metal master has samples that reach 0dBFS and a master of Adele reaches that same 0dBFS then what creates the difference in loudness isn’t those peaks, it’s “the rest”.

As a matter of fact I’m willing to bet that if you take for example a moderately loud master from say the year 2005, maybe something like a Paul Simon album, and put that up against a super loud metal master, then you can probably lower the metal master quite a bit and it’ll still feel (and be) louder than Paul Simon’s record, even though the metal album’s peaks are now solidly below 0dBFS and Paul Simon’s are still peaking higher (sample peaks).

That’s because actual loudness isn’t determined by peaks but by average.

(PS: Again; lowering all of the audio in a file obviously reduces the loudness of the file, but the loudness of “the mastered music” is in a sense the same. There’s a slight distinction.)

Thanks for your answers
I understand your technical explanations…
I do believe though that most of my sentences were enough clear for the average reader. There is the need to point out things sometimes and sometimes is part of the language that there are ambiguities.
I have clear what I am talking about and the terms I use. I say loud….I know there are many kinds of loudness: momentary loudness….I say peaks……and I know there are sample peaks….true peaks… You see we misunderstood each other, you were speaking about sample peaks and I was speaking of true peaks…I was not even thinking about what kind of peaks…I was speaking of the levels of the master bus in Cubase, that go above 0dBFS and become red, it seemed to me obvious, but was not obvious for you because we have different mindsets.
today is so hot!!! Well it is enough clear for me, but then someone says, What do you mean: is a too sunny day, or is the maximum temperature too high or the average temperature?..lol
You dig deep and I have definitely learned new concepts from your distinctions
Just to go back to the main topic….the article is offered here on mixing it’s nice and there are many good insights but I don’t see in it an enough clear explanation of gain staging.
Would be interesting to hear what the author of the article Denis Van der Werde thinks about our discussion