Montage meta normaliser

In WL6 with the meta normaliser I could read the whole montage and with"Normalise Master Section Output" only ticked it would adjust the master faders to give me the maximum desired level for CD burning e.g. -0.1dB. This would save having to play the whole montage and get the maximum value from the meter readings.

I’ve tried various options with the WL8 meta normaliser and even if I set the MS faders to -96dB the MN makes no change to them.

How can I achieve what I did in WL6?

Thanks.

Jim

You could simply do this:
2013-07-03_20-42-01.png
(to normalize peak at -1 dB, in this example)

Tried that and sliders stayed at -96dB!

I must be missing something. How can I be sure that my montage is interacting with the MS?

Jim

Your Master faders must be at the max value, not at -96 dB.
The function I told you about is a limiter, not a normalizer.

Your earlier reply stated “(to normalize peak at -1 dB, in this example)”. So I assumed it was to make it work like it did in WL6.

Is there a way to replicate the behaviour from WL6 with the meta normaliser in the WL8 version?

Thanks.

Jim

Is there a way to replicate the behaviour from WL6 with the meta normaliser in the WL8 version?

Yes, as I told you.
Think about what “normalizing” means. The result of what I told you, is “the same as” normalizing.

Hi,
this does not seem to work properly:
I took a file with -3 dBfs, put the master faders at +10 dB and applied the “loudness meta normalizer” (settings: do not change loudness, limit digital peak levels, max. 0 dBfs). --> Result: the master faders are set to 0 dB (should be at +3 dB), so no normalization!
It only works if I have a leveling plugin in the signal chain that brings the level to something > 0 dBfs. Then the master faders are set correctly to normalize the signal to a given value.

Is this the workflow in WL 8 now to normalize an audio signal? And if I have an audio file that has a peak level of -25 dB I will need 3 leveler plugins in the signal chain to get it normalized?
Hard to believe that such an important and basic function has been spoiled without any need…

Nils

It is the same with clips: They do not get normalized if their peak level is below 0 dBfs. I first have to set every clip amplification to a high value and then normalize them back down. The only positive thing here is, that I do not need a plugin for amplification…

:smiling_imp: I’m really upset. Why this new limitation? It was perfect the way it was all the versions before!!!
All that EBU pseudo loudness stuff is not an altenative for my needs.

Nils

I took a file with -3 dBfs, put the master faders at +10 dB and applied the “loudness meta normalizer” (settings: do not change loudness, limit digital peak levels, max. 0 dBfs). --> Result: the master faders are set to 0 dB (should be at +3 dB), so no normalization!

Here, the faders are set to +3dB. Check again if you did not forget something.
Using WaveLab 8.0.2 in my test.

Why this new limitation? It was perfect the way it was all the versions before!!!

This tool is called “Loudness meta normalizer”. This is not a “peak normalizer”. You can trick it to use it as a “peak normalizer”, as I explained. This tool is not designed to peak-normalize -25 dB files, as a direct option. However, this is even possible by using the new “Audio Montage output”. As the output level can be much higher than +10 dB (Master Section limit).

But I have a question: why do you want to peak normalize rather than loudness normalize?

I’am happy this works with 8.02!
In 8.01 unfortunately it does not (just tried again). I cannot install WL8.02 patch on my notebook. It always shows an error “Cannot load WlPlugin8 plug in”. Have to check it on another machine…


This tool is called “Loudness meta normalizer”. This is not a “peak normalizer”. You can trick it to use it as a “peak normalizer”, as I explained. This tool is not designed to peak-normalize -25 dB files, as a direct option. However, this is even possible by using the new “Audio Montage output”. As the output level can be much higher than +10 dB (Master Section limit).

Yes, but the meta normalizer used to be a peak normalizer and it was a great tool just the way it once was… :cry:

But I have a question: why do you want to peak normalize rather than loudness normalize?

Because I have audio files that are already mastered and the tracks are perfectly leveled in relation to each other. They come from analog sources, so their peak level is well below 0 dBfs. So, here I only need PQ-Editing and a proper peak normalization for a CD.
But the same with new recordings…I almost never need to get the same loudness on different movements of a symphony :sunglasses:.

Nils

Because I have audio files that are already mastered and the tracks are perfectly leveled in relation to each other. They come from analog sources, so their peak level is well below 0 dBfs.

I was expecting this answer. But then, it is also likely that these files are not eg. -25dB, hence they can be “normalized” with the method I told you. I think all you could do in 6 in this domain, can be achieved in 8. Please experiment.

Right, this was just an extreme example. But I still do not understand why the flexible peak normalization function that works for every source level has been removed in favour to a pseudo limiting function that only works with levels > 0 dBfs. I do not see any reason for this.

BTW, is there any other way to determine the master section output max. level of a montage faster than real time? Then the normalization correction could be set manually.

Nils

(…) in favour to a pseudo limiting function that only works with levels > 0 dBfs. I do not see any reason for this.

I don’t know why you say “pseudo limiting”, as, on the contrary, this is “perfect limiting” as there is no compression artifact.
Also, the peak level is customizable, not only 0 dB.
Limiting is required to prevent cliping possibly introduced by the gain computed to match a given loudness.

BTW, is there any other way to determine the master section output max. level of a montage faster than real time? Then the normalization correction could be set manually.

Not sure what you mean. Again, the meta normalizer can do this for you, as already explained. And this is faster than real time.

Yes I agree in general, but limiting in audio terminology usually implies some kind of compression. So it is hard to understand that actually a normalization coming from high floating point values is meant here. So limiting is not wrong, that’s why I wrote “pseudo”.

Not sure what you mean. Again, the meta normalizer can do this for you, as already explained. And this is faster than real time.

Yes, but it can only do it if peaks are > 0 dBfs. In most cases I need it for peaks << 0 dBfs and the pre-amplification trick is not very handy…
Please expand this function to also work with amplification again (peaks < 0 dBfs) instead of only with attenuation (“limiting”). Like the good old meta normalizer…

Thanks
Nils

es, but it can only do it if peaks are > 0 dBfs. In most cases I need it for peaks << 0 dBfs and the pre-amplification trick is not very handy…
Please expand this function to also work with amplification again (peaks < 0 dBfs) instead of only with attenuation (“limiting”). Like the good old meta normalizer…

Ok, I will add a more explicit option. But to be clear again, you can already do it, even for peaks << 0dBs.