no key signature instruments (missing?)

when adding players it seems that there don’t exist “no key signature” versions for some instruments, particularly clarinets and saxophones, also fluegelhorn, there may be others. how can I achieve transpositions for these instruments that do not show key signatures but are correctly displaying the accidentals in the parts ?

I don’t recall having seen clarinets etc. written without key signatures, but of course I’m not an expert on every genre of music or music from every historical period. Can you tell me a little bit more about the situations in which these kinds of instruments are typically written without key signatures?

In due course we do intend to make it possible for you to edit our existing instrument definitions, and to define your own, which will allow you to do whatever you want, but I am trying to establish whether this is something we should hop to immediately and support with predefined instruments more quickly because it’s much more common than I’m aware of.

I never use key signatures (and specify in score and parts: “there are no key signatures. accidentals apply to specific octave and within measure only”. this has never been a problem with conductors and performers, they work very well with that). it’s not an unusual way of notating contemporary scores and I certainly don’t think I am alone here. I consider this a serious issue that will hopefully be made possible soon … (especially since you actually HAVE made it available with some instruments, for instance trumpet, french horn).
sorry, but at this point I could in fact not create an orchestral score and parts that would not create some confusion as to the consistency of notation.

Sorry, I’m not sure I understand: you write in a specific key, but you don’t show the key signature just for some of the instruments, or for all of the instruments?

If you don’t want to show the key signature for all of the instruments, then can’t you simply work with an open/atonal key signature, i.e. just don’t create a key signature to start with?

Apologies, I feel like I’m missing something important here.

I’ve worked professionally in the contemporary-classical-artmusic community for over 40 years, and I can’t remember the last time I came across a score using Key Signatures…

Sure, of course. But that’s not a property of the instruments, but rather simply a function of the composer choosing not to write a key signature, which Dorico already handles perfectly well. As I say, I feel like I must be missing something quite significant in mikedit’s request.

simply a function of the composer choosing not to write a key signature

maybe it’s me missing something here …
I have never chosen a key signature
is there a way to specifically NOT choose a key signature? and how would that then reflect in transposing instrument parts?

looking forward to clarifications, maybe this was much ado about nothing on my part
(have to leave now, though, but will check in later, hopefully for more)

Guess I misunderstood too… on the other hand, if you do a classical score in E-flat you might want to have certain parts without a key signature, especially horns and timpani (which is easily achived by alt-clicking in a C major KS on those staves)

Yup, there are horn and timpani no key instruments, so that’s covered.
I think what Daniel meant is that mikedit should probably use an atonal key signature rather than change all the instruments to have no key signature. If that’s not the case then please give us more details.

By default, each flow in a new Dorico project contains an open/atonal key signature, so you shouldn’t see key signatures in transposing parts. You can create an open or atonal key signature by typing “open” or “atonal” into the Shift+K popover.

Thanks for the reminder, Daniel. There is indeed a big difference between open/atonal and C major in this regard. Is it possible to add an open/atonal KS selectively from the palette?

By default, each flow in a new Dorico project contains an open/atonal key signature, so you shouldn’t see key signatures in transposing parts. You can create an open or atonal key signature by typing “open” or “atonal” into the Shift+K popover.

Absolutely correct, if one starts with a new project. Mea culpa. I see it now in the manual.

What actually created my problem/question in the first place was probably that I had started a project with an imported file (XML I think, or MIDI, can’t remember), and that apparently set it to the key of C, and therefore the (correct) key signatures in the transposing parts.

As you say one can change the key signature back to none with Shift-K and typing either one of these two words (somwthing one has to know …). I tried doing it with the key signature panel on the right, but there exists no atonal/open choice (the blank staff picture without sharps or flats creates a C key signature) - might be good to add?

Another question has come up - in the process of trying out changing key signatures I check the individual parts from the drop down menu on the top. There, though, the instrument order (if one has added and/or moved instruments around in setup) does not correspond to the score layout and I haven’t been able to sort this to be the same. Can it be done? It’s a little confusing if that list isn’t the same.

Yes, I agree it would be good to be able to create an open/atonal key signature from the right-hand panel, and we’ll add that in due course.

The list of layouts in the layout selector should be the same as the order of the list of Layouts on the right-hand side of Setup mode.

It seems like one has to manually arrange the order of the list of Layouts on the right-hand side (it doesn’t automatically follow the order of the players on the left side) to then show the same in the drop-down on the top.
What does the Sort Layouts button (up/down arrows) on the lower right of the Layouts panel do?

I don’t believe it does anything much at the moment. The plan is to provide a means of sorting layouts by name and/or by type, and within type by player order.