No rest dot in 12/8

Hello everybody

As per the attached image, Dorico does not place the dot after the rest in a time in 12/8.

It also happens that if I change the time signature to 6/8, and in the next beat I go back to 12/8 without keeping the subdivision by three, I have to cancel and redo … am I doing something wrong?

Thanks for your help
D4 128

It is not normal to have a dotted rest for empty bars in 12/8.

Can you explain your second issue more? Perhaps with a picture?

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If I recall correctly, a full-measure rest is a full measure rest, regardless, at least in the modern era. Not sure there is an option if you wish to be more specific.

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thanks to both of you for the reply.

  1. actually it is not so essential to have the point after the rest

  2. visually everything is perfect, but there seems to be one less movement in the 6/8 measure I can try to replicate the problem and share the project as soon as possible

I was able to reproduce the second point error.

As shown in the image at 6/8, two movements are missing (overruns in the next stroke)

Here’s what I did:

  • I changed the time signature to 2/4 and inserted a subsequent time signature to 4/4.
  • I double-clicked on the time signature (2/4), and typed 6/8
  • I selected the time signature of the next measure (4/4) and I typed 16/8

This is the result.

I attach the project … in the first time signature change as you can see everything is ok. this is because I typed 6/8 and 12/8 directly, but when changing the time signature from x / 4 to x / 8 I recorded this anomalous behavior.

D4 168

D4.dorico (1001.2 KB)

What happens if you redo this whole “time signature changes” with insert mode on (global insert type)"? Well, it should behave as you expect Dorico to. Because there’s a second time signature after the first, Dorico won’t add time except if insert mode is on.

This is expected behaviour (as detailed in the manual). Dorico will only increase the length of your 2/4 bar if you use insert mode (I) when you change it to 6/8, because everything after your 12/8 time signature is fixed.

sorry but I don’t understand.

First I entered the tempo changes with an empty staff, then I added the notes, and the second time signature was inserted after the first

In that 6/8 measure there are only 4/8 notes written …

Giano, the 2/4 bar has been replaced with a 6/8

The 12/8 remains exactly 2 quarters after the 2/4, even if you later change 2/4 to something else. So you get an incomplete 6/8 bar. But insert mode allows Dorico to change the duration between the two meters to fill out a complete bar (in this case, of 6/8).

Dorico is completely different from Finale and Sibelius, wherein bars are defined by barlines and empty bars = empty bars of whatever meter. In Dorico bars are defined by meters, so even bars with no notes in them have a defined duration. Changing the meter moves those barlines in the timeline, but does not move notes (and other time signatures) – unless you use insert mode.

This is just a longer way of saying exactly what Janus said, and the User Guide says.

Perhaps this picture will help… We start with 5 bars (it doesn’t matter whether they have notes or not, but it makes it clearer to see exactly what happens)


Thank you so much for the explanations and for taking your time to create the examples. It is very much appreciated.

Thanks to you I understood Dorico’s behavior and solved my problem.

I wonder (just to understand) why I have a 6/8 beat that can only hold 4/8 ?.

It is not reminiscent of other software, Dorico2 was my first notation software

Use Insert mode in the first measure and type SHIFT+B 2e. That should insert two additional eighth notes into your 6/8 measure.

Thank you so much!!!

Because you created it from a 2/4 bar (without using insert), Thus Dorico had only four quavers to notate and cannot make a complete 6/8 bar. Compare with my example C, see how the 4/4 bar (8 quavers) creates a complete 6/8 and a ‘runt’ bar of 2 quavers. Without Insert, Dorico does not create more musical time.

this is clear and your examples are fantastic regarding Dorico’s behavior in different situations. I wonder what is, in general, the musical usefulness of having to have an incorrect “count” with respect to the time signature

The obvious case is of course pick-up (upbeat or anacrusis) bars.

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right :slight_smile:

The other case are split bars at section breaks where the end of the normal measure is actually part of the next section (minuet /trios, for instance). (Although I suppose in this case it would be a derivative of the anacrusis observation by Daniel.)

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for curiosity… to go back to the first question, is there a Doric way to put the dot after the rest in a 12/8 measure?

I think you would have to Force Duration and add each one manually. As said, empty bars do not have dotted rests in 12/8. I have never seen it.

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