Notation option bug?

[Antonio_Freixas]

I imported a file into Dorico. The file was a MusicXML file created by Sibelius. I now have some odd notations:

In this example, I would expect the first note in each of the first two staves to be notated the same way, as a dotted quarter note.

In this example, I would like the second note in the second staff to be a dotted quarter note tied to another quarter note.

To make it more confusing, I tried to replicate the problems in a test file, this one created from scratch. After entering the notes, I used the Library Manager to ensure that my new file had all the same settings as the imported file. Here are some sample measures:

For the last two measures in the test file, I cut-and-pasted the problematic parts of the imported score (the ones in the two examples above). They came out exactly as I would like.

Remember, the two files have the same notation options.

I thought that perhaps the import process had “contaminated” the score in some way. There are no note properties set, so if the score is screwed up from being imported, I can’t fine a UI entry I can use to view the screwup or change it.

If I cut-and-paste the problematic passage back from the test file (where it displays correctly), it remains screwed up. If I delete and re-enter the notes by hand, they are also screwed up. If I create a new measure and either cut-and-paste or enter the notes by hand, they are screwed up.

I’ve also tried to change every single notation option for note grouping, one at a time, and nothing seems to affect these particular notation issues. Notation options are per flow. Both the imported file and the test file have a single flow. This avoids the problem that I might be setting options for some other flow and that the test file might have copied options from some other flow.

Any ideas? This seems very mysterious, but perhaps there’s some setting that I’m missing (there are, after all, thousands of settings).

[DanielMuzMurray]

Can you please attach a cut-down version of your project?

[Nic_Nipp]

I have also had this issue with Dorico. There are many inconsistencies with how it notates dotted quarter notes. The only solution that I have found so far is to select the note that is written as a quarter tied to an eighth, click “.” to un-dot it, click “O” to enable force duration, and click “.” one last time. That should make it into a dotted quarter.

I understand this method is annoying, and I wish that Dorico would automatically summarize it to a dotted quarter. Unless I am writing a dotted quarter note from beat 2-3 in a 4/4 bar (for the sake of showing the 3rd beat), I am literally NEVER going to want it notated as a quarter tied to an eighth note.

Hopefully this helps you at least fix it for this project. Maybe someone else has a better solution.

[Janus]

@Nic_Nipp

There are many inconsistencies with how it notates dotted quarter notes.

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Dorico is completely (and perhaps annoyingly) consistent according the note grouping options that you have chosen

[JAMES_GILBERT]

@Antonio_Freixas

perhaps there’s some setting that I’m missing

Since this is an imported (musicxml?) file, go into program settings, xml input and deselect all the tick boxes for xml import, re-import and see if you’re having the same issues. Then re-check Library->Notation options->Note grouping. Adjust the settings as desired. Not every rhythmic combination will have a setting, but this section should answer most, if not all of your examples. I’m not sure, if you’ve made the correct changes, why you aren’t getting the results you want. I’m able to get the correct rhythms you want by changing the settings. I’m assuming 4/4 meter. When those check boxes are selected for musicxml it tends to override dorico’s defaults.(I think the Edit menu and select Reset Appearance and Reset Position might also reset things to the defaults). Oh, one thing I ran into when I first started with Dorico was changing things in notation options and forgetting to hit apply. All I did was move the window out of the way expecting to see instant results.

[dan_kreider]

In addition to agreeing with @Janus that Dorico is 100% consistent, a minor suggestion:

If this were indeed a scenario where Force duration were needed, the easier way:

1. Select the tied quarter
2. Press O
3. Press 6, period

I’m not casting aspersions here, merely making a general observation: Finale lets its users do all sorts of awful and incorrect notation. Dorico makes it much harder. It’s worth taking the time to explore Notation Options>Note Grouping to learn the rules that Dorico uses to display rhythms as it does.

[Mark_Johnson]

Antonio, is it possible that the errant imported notation has its duration forced? That’s the only thing I can think of that would prevent the same meter and the same settings from yielding the same notation.

Daniel was right – we’re going to need to see the project in order to help!

[DanielMuzMurray]

@Mark_Johnson

is it possible that the errant imported notation has its duration forced?

That crossed my mind too.

[Janus]

@Mark_Johnson

Antonio, is it possible that the errant imported notation has its duration forced?

@Antonio_Freixas, If this is true, it can be removed by Select all, right-click>Filter>notes and chords, reset the Forced duration property in the lower panel.

[Nic_Nipp]

Oh, thank you! I didnt actually know there were in depth note grouping settings. Wasnt trying to spread any misinformation, I just didn’t realize that was something you could change.

[Nic_Nipp]

Thank you for this! That is very helpful, and I will definitely explore those options.

[Janus]

@Nic_Nipp

I didn’t actually know there were in depth note grouping settings.

No problem. Have a look at Notation options>Note grouping. There’s a plethora of options for different situations.

[Antonio_Freixas]

@Janus

I’m sorry, but you are wrong. Dorico is completely (and perhaps annoyingly) consistent according the note grouping options that you have chosen

@dan_kreider

In addition to agreeing with @Janus that Dorico is 100% consistent

Well, maybe not 100% consistent. The first example in my OP shows 2 staves that use different notation for the first notes in the measures, even though these first notes have the same duration. Also, the imported file and the test file have the same notation options, and yet Dorico is notating the music differently, even when I cut-and-paste from one to the other.

@Mark_Johnson

Antonio, is it possible that the errant imported notation has its duration forced?

Keep in mind that I said I added a measure and entered the notes manually. I never force duration, so I’m not familiar with the feature. Wouldn’t this be a note property? Based on another response, it appears it is. All note properties are at their default value–there is nothing to reset.

@JAMES_GILBERT

Oh, one thing I ran into when I first started with Dorico was changing things in notation options and forgetting to hit apply.

I didn’t forget to hit Apply when I checked out each of the notation options, one-by-one.

@DanielMuzMurray

Can you please attach a cut-down version of your project?

I’ll see if I can provide something. I’m not on my desktop PC and may not get around to this until tomorrow.

[DanielMuzMurray]

It almost has to be something to do with that file. Attach it when you can.

Have you tried resetting Notation Options to Factory and then changing things again?

[pianoleo]

I’m not sure that anywhere on this thread this has been stated clearly enough:

When you import MusicXML, a bunch of stuff in Preferences > MusicXML Import is respected. (This dialog is found on the Dorico menu on Mac or the Edit menu on Windows.)

The default preferences here for Notes and Chords specify that Note durations should not be respected as found in the MusicXML:

but should follow whatever’s set in Library > Notation Options > Note Grouping.

If what you want is for your MusicXML files to import as closely as possible to how they were in Finale, or Sibelius, turn on this option (and Apply and Close the dialog) before you import the MusicXML:

This - as it says - will import the notes as though each of them has had Force Duration applied. Force Duration overrides the options in Library > Notation Options, meaning that if you subsequently change those options, these notes will not be regrouped to match the revised Notation Options.

[Lillie_Harris]

One other thing: some Notation Options for Note Grouping show notes as dotted or tied differently, according to whether the note is followed by a note or a rest.

That can explain some differences between otherwise almost identical rhythms.

[Antonio_Freixas]

@pianoleo

This - as it says - will import the notes as though each of them has had Force Duration applied. Force Duration overrides the options in Library > Notation Options, meaning that if you subsequently change those options, these notes will not be regrouped to match the revised Notation Options.

I imported the MusicXML file using the default MusicXML import settings., meaning that the Note Duration toggle was off.

@Lillie_Harris

One other thing: some Notation Options for Note Grouping show notes as dotted or tied differently, according to whether the note is followed by a note or a rest.

I ran through every Notation Option, setting each first one way and then the other and I could find no setting that fixed the problem. Also, when I cut-and-pasted the problematic passages into a new file, one having the same notation options as the imported file, I got a different result.

@Janus

@Antonio_Freixas, If this is true, it can be removed by Select all, right-click>Filter>notes and chords, reset the Forced duration property in the lower panel.

I can’t find any force duration property in the properties pane. I can tell that a note is forced only by looking at the notes pane and seeing if the lock symbol is on. If I select all notes, the lock symbol is not on.

I found I can fix the first problem shown in the OP by selecting the first note (a tied quarter note and eighth note), changing it to a quarter note, pressing the force duration icon, and then pressing the dotted note icon. The result is a dotted quarter note, which is what I get on the second staff below.

Another fix was to try what @Lillie_Harris suggested: change the following rest to a note. With force duration off everywhere, changing the eighth rest to an eighth note makes the top staff match the second. Removing the eighth note restores the problem.

Aha! So it must be a notation option! But this seems to be the associated setting:

Regardless of how I set this setting, the first note on the top staff still looks like this:

And to be clear: none of the notes here have forced duration.

Let’s look at the second problem:

As far as I can tell, this is the related notation option:

The example shown in the dialog is pretty close to my usage, although the example has rests where I have notes. But going back to my test file, look how the next-to-last measure is notated. This measure is exactly the same as the problematic one above.

I made sure the test file had all the same options as my imported file by using the Library Manage. However, to be absolutely sure, I visually compared all the settings in the Notation Options/Note Groupings.

@DanielMuzMurray

Have you tried resetting Notation Options to Factory and then changing things again?

I tried using the Library Manager to set everything to factory. This did not improve anything. Then I set everything to match the test file, the file that shows the notation as I want it. Again, no change.

@DanielMuzMurray

Can you please attach a cut-down version of your project?

Here it is. It has just the two measures that I used in the OP.

Test File.dorico (2.7 MB)

[pianoleo]

There’s something weird about the time signature. I’m not sure what, exactly, but if you just click on the existing 4/4 time signature, hit Enter to edit it, then Enter again to confirm the popover, you’ll find that your problems fix themselves.

[JAMES_GILBERT]

As @pianoleo said, there is something weird about the time signature. In dorico you can specify unique beaming for a time signature. If you enter [1+2+1]/4 as the time signature I can replicate some of the note grouping issues you encountered. Looks like maybe the original file may be exporting a non-standard time signature? Who knows? In addition to double checking time signatures after musicxml imports, also check the clefs at the start. According to a John Barron Discover Dorico video, if you can click on a clef at the start of a piece (it turns orange), it is an “added clef” that shouldn’t be there. I noticed that is true in your example. (Select a clef, hit delete. It is then impossible to select the same clef again).

[Antonio_Freixas]

@pianoleo

There’s something weird about the time signature. I’m not sure what, exactly, but if you just click on the existing 4/4 time signature, hit Enter to edit it, then Enter again to confirm the popover, you’ll find that your problems fix themselves.

How odd! The first time I tried this, it didn’t change anything. Then I did it again and it worked.

I went back to the original file. When I bring up the time signature panel, in the pane titled “Used in This Flow”, it shows 4/4 twice.

I tried changing all the 4/4s to the one in the “Common” pane. One of these is stubborn.

When I selecta time signature, it normally highlights a time signature in the “Used in This Flow” pane. For this one time signature, it doesn’t. If I change it to 2/2, it highlights 2/2; if I change it back to 4/4, it stops highlighting.

I kept trying various ways to remove the second 4/4. Just deleting it didn’t work. Dorico moved its location and even hid it. I did a bunch of stuff and eventually I deleted it. This fixed the first problem in my OP. However, there are still two 4/4s listed in the “Used in This Flow” pane, so I still have a problem somewhere.

My heart goes out to the Finale users who think that they just transfer all their Finale files to Dorico using the MusicXML format. There are bugs on the creation side and then there are bugs on the input side—tracking who is responsible for any problem is difficult.

I’ve been importing from Sibelius. There are a number of problems and I haven’t figured out who is responsible. This time signature thing looks like a Dorico bug.