Is it possible to get my desired result using Notation/Note Grouping settings and not Force Duration? I don’t think so, but maybe there’s some magical combination I haven’t found yet.
Which makes me wonder, would it be worth it to have a feature wherein for a given score, you could set custom note grouping rules—in this case, “a 3.5 beat note starting on beat one should always be a dotted half tied to an eighth”? Or would that be a can of worms best left untouched?
It’s all good. And thanks for the Force Duration tip (I was always creating both notes, then turning on F.D., then tying).
The reason I’m hung up on that specific notation is that it’s often the cleanest way to communicate what results in “hold a note steadily for three beats and cut off cleanly on the four”. Can be found all over the place in some scores.
I think what makes the difference here is that Dorico’s note groupings are rooted in an abstract, objective approach to beat division, whereas a tie to an eighth note where the eighth note indicates a cutoff is a scoring and performance convention. (The Brits among us see it commonly in nineteenth-century scores, by Parry and the like.) If we ignore convention, and go by the abstraction of making sound during notes and making silence during rests, the note groupings rules probably make more sense, at least among themselves.
An interesting tangent: when in the twentieth century do we start following the influence of hyper-specific scorings, like those by Mahler, Strauss, Stravinsky, Webern, or Boulez? In Elgar, is a tied eighth a cutoff or to be sounded? What about Walton? What about Finzi? What about Britten? What about earlier Britten vs. later Britten? What about vocal vs. instrumental?
In 4/4, a dotted half on beat 1 or 2, and a half on beat 2, are all allowed to cross the middle of the bar. In many style guides (including mine), ties into and out of these notes are also permitted.
It seems Dorico will always split on beat 3 if ties are involved, so I’d like to put in a feature request for the option to not split when ties are added.
Thanks — I am aware of the Force Duration override, but of course that needs to be invoked every time, making it rather cumbersome.
I don’t believe there is any way under Notation Options > Note Grouping to obtain all of the behaviors I show in my Music Preparation Fundamentals handout without resorting to Force Duration. Dorico will allow a half note or a dotted half note on beat 2 to cross beat 3, but only if ties are not involved.
One way of handling it that may work in certain situations (but could cause problems in others) is to add the 4/4 time signature in the popover as [1+2+1]/4. That gives the desired result without force duration.
But in some other bars it is likely to cause undesirable results.
That’s a clever workaround! But I’m afraid that setting will certainly cause problems elsewhere. For instance, I expect it will turn dotted-quarter + eighth-tied-to-eighth + dotted-quarter into something much less desirable!
If you have a StreamDeck (or other macro program), it’s pretty easy to program a single button to do that. If you’re using pitch-first input, the following SD sequence will automate that, just hit the pitch and then the SD button:
I can tell you don’t hang out on the MET FB group, LOL!!! It seems to come up every few months but there is a fairly vocal contingent, led by Matthew Karas and others, that are insistent that the following is correct (screenshot from a Karas post):
Basically it boils down to this - if a half note is always allowable on beat 2 in 4/4, does that change if you have a tie into or out of it? I personally think the tie changes things, as do virtually all engraving style guides and manuals, but this half note is a grouping that some do want. I do think that a note 1/2 the length of the bar in a duple meter can always be placed 1/4 of the way through the bar as the eye can easily discern the 1-2-1 pattern, but once you change the length of that “2,” IMO there are more preferable ways to notate it that allow the eye to more easily see the rhythmic groupings. Obviously there are some that always want to see the “2” in any manner of a 1-2-1 pattern regardless of ties into or out of it, so it does seem like something Dorico should support.
Contrary opinion from virtually all notation manuals and style guides
Just some examples I already had saved. I’m sure I’ve posted them here before in other threads.
There seems to be a pretty strong consensus among notation manuals, style guides, and engraved music after 1950 or so, but certainly no consensus in hand copied music. There are also composers/orchestrators that always want to show an eighth to make the end of the note clear in situations like the images #8-10 above. If there is a large group of users that wants that style of notation, it seems like something Dorico should offer too, regardless of my own opinion of it.
That just lands in the “Dorico should be all things to all people” puddle. It ignores the reality that decisions need to be made and finite resources deployed.
(Sorry - it’s been a long week)
