Nuendo Causing Random Reboots

I’ve been turning down work for weeks while I try to figure out why the PC keeps restarting randomly. Nuendo is open, even when there’s no work going on because system audio is routed through Nuendo (Dante network). So, I didn’t notice until a few days ago that, if I don’t open Nuendo, it doesn’t reboot itself.
It doesn’t crash when the app is opened or when I do something specific. In fact, I don’t even have to touch Nuendo after opening a project. Its not a specific project or anything that would indicate Nuendo as the cause other than the fact that it doesn’t happen if I don’t open Nuendo.

Has anyone else encountered this or have any clue what the problem is? I’ve swapped out the PSU for a new one, monitored CPU and GPU temps, that restart setting is off, no overclocking…

I have no idea what’s causing it. This just started happening out of the blue during a tracking session with a new client. It happened several times during the few hours the session took place and happens in time gaps ranging anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours in between.

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Something like that basically has to be hardware, or drivers for said hardware. Normal user mode software like Nuendo can’t directly crash the system as it is isolated from anything that could. So it can only do something that causes something that does have access to do it.

My first thought is the Dante card/drivers since that would be something that is not doing anything when Nuendo is shut down, but is active when it is running. The easiest way to test would be if you have some other audio hardware like a USB soundcard you could hook up and use instead, just to have it running and see if a crash happens.

If the system is blue screening there are programs that can help you identify what driver is involved with the crash, but it does require some computer know how to figure out what they are telling you. Whocrashed is one such program I’ve used for that.

It could also potentially be the CPU itself, though that isn’t super likely. Sometimes they have issues that only manifest with certain programs. That is harder to test for, you kind of have to hammer them with different stress tests and see if they fail. It is also not all that likely if it is happening when Nuendo is idling as usually such a thing happens under load. However it isn’t impossible.

If you have a 13th or 14th generation Intel CPU, make sure to update your BIOS to the newest ones that just got released. They have a known bug in them. I doubt that is it, as the bug isn’t manifesting as system crashes (it is manifesting as problems in games), but then maybe it does with Nuendo.

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Can you provide the system details?
Maybe we see something obvious.

That is more likely than you think, these days.

He is using it for system audio as well.

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Yes, and no. All audio on all the PCs and Macs in the room use Dante interfaces, but system audio on the main/central PC runs over DVS in 16x16 WDM mode. Nuendo and the other DAWs have been using the Marian ClaraE 512x512 PCIe Dante card for the past few years, ever since upgrading from the RedNet PCIeR Dante card.
With the sole exception of Acid Pro 11 Suite, ClaraE has been 100% rock solid from day1. Acid freezes for a minute while trying to load and then closes itself out every time, but that’s unrelated to this issue. I told Magix that I was pretty sure Acid Pro’s “unlimited channels” was actually just something like 250 channels or whatever because 128x128 was the maximum number of channels it could ever be interfaced with at the time when Sony wrote the code. They swore up and down they knew for a fact it could offer infinite channels if it had to. Then, after weeks of troubleshooting with them and sending a bunch of files they kept requesting, they concluded… “Our team has looked in-depth into your issue and we believe the issue is that your Dante card has too many channels for it to know what to do with, causing it to crash”

So, anyway, the card and its ASIO driver have been the most stable device I’ve used in in all my years since switching from tape. I don’t see it being the culprit.

The issue seemed to have been resolved after I ran down the list of possibilities Microsoft suggested could fix it. Then, it came back.

A very odd thing happened a few days ago though. I was in the middle of a tracking session when this issue first presented itself. It restarted, then again, and then it seemed like the time between each restart was getting shorter and shorter until I could barely open the project before it happened again. It was a nightmare. I assumed it was the heat because we were having such a heatwave that the AC was no longer able to keep the studio from being hot and it seemed to make sense that maybe it getting hotter and hotter and that’s why the periods were getting shorter.
Anyway, I was so embarrassed and worried about negative word of mouth getting out there that i knocked his entire bill all the way down to just $100.

I was back to business as usual having no issues for weeks when he booked another session a couple days ago. The temp has cooled a little and I was looking to make up for the previous experience. We get going on the session… “Restarting”!

It hadn’t occured to me because I have no idea how it would be possible, but I wonder if HE is the cause of the problem.
So, now I’m thinking about every little detail of the session.
Hes not a typical client. He’s a young guy, does kid parties dressed as Mario he said and just wanted to record this parody song over a youtube karaoke backing track. The last session he just wanted me to collect all these mario related songs from YouTube and just level everything out, master, and export as a single stereo track with the spacing he wanted. I recommended I put it together as a tracklist at each marker for him to simply play through and, despite being a smart guy, he hadn’t thought of that.

He was having trouble with the guest wifi and I tried the password repeatedly, but it wouldn’t work. So, I had to log him onto the main WiFi. I was careful to log him into the 5G one (the studio uses the 2G because it reaches the cameras outside better), but I don’t know if the 2G network can be accessed from the 5G network somehow or whether he figured out that, since they’re both off limits to guests, the 2G and 5G main networks used the same password.

I’m wondering if maybe he intentionally did something on his laptop I’m not aware of and maybe his sessions were just to get inside… but why would anyone wanna do that. This last session cost him $300. In fact, I let him slide on the bigger half until delivery, and I found the cash for the remaining $160 in the mailbox 2 days later.

I don’t think there’s anything for him to gain by accessing the network here and $400 would be an expensive prank.

So I mean, that guy could be the problem. I doubt it would be deliberate, but maybe there’s something on his laptop that is causing issues. Could have a malware infection or it could be an overly aggressive endpoint protection system (some of them actively scan networks).

Three things I’d consider doing if you aren’t already and if they are feasible in your work environment:

  1. Isolate your Dante network completely. I’d consider actual physical isolation, as in separate switches and the whole 9 yards. But if not at least put it on its own VLAN and in its own IP space. Keep it away from any other network communications.

  2. Isolate the studio systems on the network. Have the public Internet facing NICs on their own VLAN, that nothing else is on, no cameras, no client laptops, nothing. Let them communicate with each other and the Internet, nothing else. If they don’t need to communicate with each other, consider making it a private VLAN (where they can only talk out).

  3. Run a host-based firewall on your DAW systems, and for the public NIC look at having it deny all inbound traffic. If you need some, for like filesharing with other DAWs, configure it to only talk to those systems.

This will keep the amount of issues network devices can cause to a minimum. It may not fix your issue, as your issue may not be related to this, but it is good network security anyhow. If you want more information or help with this, let me know, cybersecurity is my profession.

We only build our PCs with mobos that have 2 or more NICs. The NIC with the widest bandwidth always gets designated as the data port for the Dante PCIe cards. The Dante network uses its own separate switch.

This has made me feel safe up until now. The network with internet access is also kept separate. This room also uses a wireless repeater, so we have a pair of 5G and a pair of 2.4G guest WiFi (and obviously another 4 for the studio) because the old NetGear router had trouble reaching through through the walls to the Dolby Atmos mastering room. The ASUS WiFi6 we upgraded to some months back (apparently right before WiFi7 was an option- Those mother #$%^&*% lol) seems to reach just fine. So there are now 8 available WiFi networks. I’m guessing that’s not a good thing :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

Anyway,
I’m glad you brought this up though because I realized a big security flaw in the audio network I somehow overlooked; probably due to tackling different things at different times instead of setting up all networking as a single project…

The computers in this room and the wider network use PCIe Dante soundcards and THAT is airtight… or rather it would be if the PCs and Macs didn’t also run Dante Virtual Soundcard, which I’m thinking likely required a separate NIC of its own. When I was grabbing an old PC from the studio to give to my daughter, about a few months back, I grabbed a box containing some unused spare parts, in case I needed anything. In that box were some PCIe network cards. I thought, at the time, "Why did we waste money on these extra NICs if we don’t need them.
I think I know the answer now. We must have removed the cards or failed to realize their purpose when we built or upgraded some of the PCs. Enabling WiFi on the main PC messes with the console’s digital controls, for whatever reason, which always eventually causes the DAW’s solo and mute functions to go haywire. So, the main PC is definitely NOT using WiFi.
If the 2 NIC PC with WiFi disabled doesn’t have its 3rd NIC installed, yet is running 2 Dante soundcards (PCIe + DVS) and also has internet access (now that Steinberg forces us to do so, just so hobbyists can save a USB port on the laptop in their bedrooms :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: ); then there’s a 100% chance the internet router was bridged with the Dante network at some point.

Infact, I’m looking at the NIC adapter we had to add to the Mac in front of me right now. It doesn’t have any analog controls or even MIDI connected, so we connected via WiFi for this one; which means the added NIC was for running DVS for system audio and we’ve cracked the case on “Where’s the security vulnerability that would make messing with the network possible?”

I’ll keep that in mind. However, I now know that the issue at hand is not a Nuendo issue, but an issue in the PC somewhere and I’ve tried EVERYTHING Microsoft, Google, and Bing have offered as possible causes and solutions. NONE of them have done the trick. The PC is still randomly restarting.
Its costing me a lot of time and losing unsaved work. It also seems to LOVE doing it during tracking sessions, which is adding up to thousands of dollars in free studio time.
At this point, we’ve given up and decided to just build a new AMD Threadripper Pro PC; since FabFilter Pro-R2 is also murdering the current Ryzen 9 5950X when we attempt to use even just 2 instances in an Atmos project. I see no chance whatsoever that the modest improvements in the 7950X could make any difference whatsoever, and we need a new PC due to this issue that seems to have no solution. So that seems like the only way to go.

Ya… Sounds like a new computer is the easy way to go. I am the same way with my main desktop in that if it is having problem and I can’t easily troubleshoot them, it gets replaced because I am not interested in the crap.

You are right that the 7950X and the new 9950X are not much of an improvement. They are a little faster, but like less than 10%. If you need big gains, you need MOAR CORES! :smiley:

Also, just an FYI (that you may already know) most routers put the 5ghz and 2.4ghz WiFi on the same logical network, even if they have different names. Likewise, the guest network is often (but not always) on the same network, just a different name/password. So even though the networks may seem separated, they probably aren’t.

You can run everything on the same physical network and have it logically divided using VLANs which are just what they sound like: Virtual LANs but you do have to have equipment that can handle it and set it up correctly.

What I’d look at doing in your situation, if you can, is similar to what we do at work. I work for a university, not a studio, but we do use Dante and other things that use Ethernet/IP but need to not be public:

For the Dante stuff, I’d have a dedicated physical network. Have its own NICs, own switches, and even make the Ethernet cable a different color (we usually use red). This does not get connected to a router anywhere, it is local traffic only, for Dante only. Not only keeps things secure, but keeps latency in check.

For studio systems I’d hook them all to a wired network on their own VLAN that lets them talk to each other, controllers, and the router, but no guest systems. No WiFi on studio systems, not even so much for security, but because WiFi cards have way more system overhead than wired cards (I’ve never found a satisfactory technical explanation as to why). Have a WiFi network in that VLAN for controllers, if needed, but that’s all that goes there.

If you can get away with it, don’t do a WiFi network for studio devices/personal devices of studio employees, but if you need one put it on its own VLAN with its own SSID, separate from the controllers. If it doesn’t need access to the studio wired systems, don’t give it any, if it does, only open the ports/IPs that are needed. Like if there’s a storage system that is needed open that up, but not the DAWs.

For guest systems, have a separate VLAN and WiFi SSID that they connect to which has only Internet access. If your router allows it, I’d make it a private VLAN, which prohibits them from communicating with each other if multiple ones are on it.

If you want something that’ll handle that pretty easy, I’d look at Ubiquiti. I have some complaints with their stuff, but it is minor, and one of the Dream Machines or Cloud Gateways should do nicely as a router/WiFi controller, their switches are VLAN capable, and their WiFi access points integrate nicely and support multiple SSIDs. You can then manage it all from one web interface. That way you aren’t chasing multiple devices around to make sure everything is secure and consistent and if you make a change (like changing a WiFi password or something) it happens to all devices at once.

It’ll also do security cameras, if you want that, and does a pretty good job. That’s actually what we mostly use them for (we use Juniper switches, but they are more complex and expensive).