Odd Pre-gap, Post-gap numbers

My apologies in advance if this has been covered here. I have been away from the program and the forum for several months. I am also sitll only at 7.01, so if this is a bug that has been fixed in the interim, just tell me. If my technical understanding of what I am seeing is flawed, also just tell me. My issue:

In pursuance of remastering an album I recorded 17 years ago, I was setting all the track markers, CD text, ISRCs, etc. I’m using a combination of short gaps between tracks (longest only 2 seconds or so) and a couple of track splices for the very short spaces that I had originally sequenced to DAT in '94.

For some reason, and with no relationship to either the length of the gap or whether or not there is a splice in place, a little more than half of the tracks are displaying pre-gap and post-gap numbers (post-gap is always zero) as opposed to the asterisks. In addition, these numbers are not making any sense to me. There are a couple of pre-gaps listed as -1, and a couple listed as either 8 or 9. 8 or 9 what? -1 what? Certainly not seconds, and frames do not seem to make sense either.

My initial attempts at moving the markers does not seem to make any difference with these values.

There is nothing in the help menu about these pre or post-gap numbers.

Can anyone clue me in here?

I am running on XP, which I know is not supported, but I would at least like to know how these columns of data should be working before I write this off as running on the wrong platform…and I will be changing to Win7 shortly…just can’t do it today.

I have put together a couple of other CDs on this same system with WL7 and have not noticed this behavior before.


Try update to latest WL 7.1.1 first

Is this done with WL 2 or 3, maybe it’s a transition problem
with the old VOB and now new GEAR CD/DVD drivers.
What happens if you save the old "if Montage " in WL 7 or in WL 6
and load back this, do you see the same pre-gap’s then ?
I think PG know what can be the reason anyway !

regards S-EH

Thanks but no. This is a fresh WL7 project, and saving, closing and reopening does not change anything.

If I could simply have an explanation of how the Pre and Post columns are supposed to work normally, this would be a great help.

The current displays simply make no sense to me, and I have not been able to find any other explanatory information about the Pre and Post data.

Can you explain how I mean your work flow
and do you make CD with the Montage and using the Wizard ?
If using the Wizard you can hover with mouse and read about
Pre and Post gaps with (?) or maybe this is something else !

regards S-EH

I work in the Montage, and have never used the Wizard. Within the CD tab in the Montage, hovering or help commands reveal nothing. I will take a look at the Wizard now and see if anything relevant appears.

Considering how I am defining tracks, as indicated in my original post, I do not think the Pre and Post Gap info is making sense.

Even if someone could just point me to a link that explains what this data SHOULD be indicating, I would be more informed than I currently am about the odd displays I am seeing.

Ok, open a Montage and with CD tracks or not
go to the CD tab / CD Wizard hover now with mouse
use “What’s this” (?)
where it says Pre-gaps and Post-gaps “no it doesn’t :slight_smile:

“Adjust gaps between markers and sound (as CD frames)”
point with mouse over “Silence after first track start marker” etc
and you get a yellow post-it popup

and you get an explanation what it means !

one more open menu/Help inside WL7
and do a search on “CD” and you get a lot of info

regards S-EH

On my system, hovering over the top of Pre and Post Gap columns (no icon for this, just column headings) there is not explanation. Within the help menu, there is a description of what Pre and Post Gap are supposed to mean, but no description of how the “beginning or end of audio” are supposed to be sensed, nor what the units of measurement are for the gap.

I have, however, done a little more testing and have some partial answers only.

To explain my concern, it makes sense that I should explain how this particular CD is being put together:

The master DAT recording, sequenced but without processing, from 1994 was put through various eq and compression plugs to create a new file that was dithered to 16 bit. One song, however, was remixed and remastered separately. This means that the entire CD is just three clips: 1)multiple, continuous cuts before the new mix 2)The remixed song 3)All cuts past the newly remixed song.

The first clip contains 6 tracks with the original silent gaps, the second clip contains a single track, the final clip contains 3 more tracks. The only new fades are very short and associated with the starts and ends of the 3 clips. I maintained the original silent gaps (which contain some dithering so are not absolutely silent, but are very, very low level indeed. The only place where there is an overlap of clips is associated with getting in and out of the new remix from and to the original mixes.

Where there is enough original silence between tracks in the original sequence to justify it, I have inserted a gap- i.e- put an end marker on the earlier track, followed by a space, then a start marker prior to the next track. Where the actual silence gap is too short to justify this, I have inserted a Split marker.

I have managed to get the numbers to change in the two instances where they were longer (8 and 9, which must mean frames) by moving the markers. In these instances, it appears that the numbers are associated with clip edges…maybe. Or is there some sensing level for audio that is going on?

This does not appear to relate to the several other instances where I am getting a -1 reading and there are no clip edges in sight. I have for quite a few years now always put my Track Start markers at about 100 milliseconds prior to first audio on the track…but this does not really correspond to -1 frame, nor does it explain why some tracks still have no Pre-gap, nor why this -1 Pre-gap can occur when there is a real gap or when there is a split.

…If I can simply have this behavior in the program explained, it would be helpful.

I produce at least one live album every year that is intended to seem continuous and live, and is comprised mostly of Track Splits inside of audience ambience. I really, really need to know if there are any implications for this Pre and Post Gap behavior in WL7.

One of the reasons that I began making sure that there was at least 100ms prior to first audio was the discovery that some CD players would mute audio very, very briefly at a Track Split.

Understanding the implications of all this program behavior for the audio behavior of the final disc is very, very important.

I would first advise you to upgrade to version 7.1.1.
Secondly, if you are not keen with so called pq settings, us the cd wizard to generate your markers.

It should be obvious to you from my last extensive post that I am now using, and always have used, customized individual track marker settings and know how to use them, so the Wizard would be totally inadequate since the options there are generally global and very limited in scope. The implication that th question I am asking here is somehow based on my general discomfort with setting custom pq codes is way off the mark, and does not answer my essential questions.

I am simply asking a couple of questions which you should be able to answer about the way your program is supposed to behave, as well as what the numbers in the pre and post gap columns are SUPPOSED to mean, so that I can determine whether there is a problem, and what the potential fallout from that problem will be.

I will certainly upgrade to 7.1.1 as soon as I can. Are you telling me that this fixes a bug with pre and post gap displays? Are you also telling me that the behavior I have described does not make sense?

I obviously don’t claim to know even close to everything, nor do I claim that there is a bug here or that the program is not working the way it is supposed to…Just that some of what is going on does not make sense to me relative to my general experience with the program in the past and with other programs I have used for prepping CD masters. A little data would go a long way to clear this up.

Pre/post gaps are always in CD frames units.

A display of -1 for a pre-gap is a mistake, and should be in fact an asterisk *
This means “does not apply” because the marker overlaps a clip, or the gap is “too long” (more than 1 second, changed to 10 in next version).

Secondly, the pre-gap value is correctly displayed only if the post-gap is valid (>= 0). This is a mistake that is corrected in upcoming 7.2.

I add this stuff is about display issues, and does not affect the output CD.

Hopefully the above explains things for you.

Thank you, Phillipe. This is exactly the information I was seeking…including the bug status of the software.

I guess the time difference between here and Europe makes the communication a little less efficient than it might otherwise be.

Thanks again.