Hi, I am new to Dorico after 25 years with Finale…
In an Ensemble piece, some instruments are detuned 1/4 tone below the others. How can I create a key signature (for instance a B quarter tone below the clef), and a playing technique (probably a detuning as a direction) so that the instrument has a key signature / a clef to indicate it, and it sounds like that? Perhaps is there already an exchange on it?
thank you
Welcome to the Dorico forum, and sorry that no one has responded yet. Since the demise of Finale, the forum has been hit with an onslaught of new users trying to sort things out.
Dorico does indeed support quarter-tone notation and playback. The entry point in the 6.1 manual is at Notional reference > Tonality systems. Scroll down a bit to either Equal temperament (24-EDO, Gould arrows) or Equal temperament (24-EDO, Stein-Zimmermann).
The only way I know how to set this in your piece is:
Dear Sitka,
Many thanks you for your answer.
Yes, I know how to use quarter tones or microtonality (with 24-EDO or other systems).
Here, the difficulty is rather other:
The second problem is the visual indication of this with a clef.
Here is my example on Finale:
QuartertoneFinale.pdf (255 KB)
I am absolutely not a specialist in that field, but what I understand in your requirements is that you want two different things: a custom key signature which is simply a “normal” key signature with glyph indicating that the instrument should play what’s written 1/4 tone lower than written (which defeats the 24 EDO notation) — I suppose it should be quite easy to define that new key signature with a definition that’s the same as the 12 EDO key signature, only with one glyph added.
The second requirement is that the playback takes this in consideration, and this is not really a Dorico problem, it depends on the VSTi capabilities. Some instruments can be detuned (and even play specific temperaments). Make sure you don’t share those with the ones that play “in tune”, Dorico can perfectly handle multiple instances of VSTi in its Play mode.
Hope it helps!
I’m not sure why a special clef or key signature is needed when it might be simpler simply to note in text above the start of a piece that the instrument is to be tuned 1/4-tone down.
Dear Derrek,
So that the conductor sees immediately on each page (huge orchestra), with the clef or any sign at the beginning of each stave, which instruments (which flute, clar, etc.) are tuned « normally » and which one are detuned.
F.
Hi!
The example pdf makes it clear to me what you want to achieve.
If you are on Dorico 6, simply double click on the instrument name in the score. This will allow you to edit the full name and the short name as shown in the score. (alternatively it can be set in the setup mode).
You will need to create a special paragraph style for the boxed text. This is under Library / Paragraph styles. Press the + at the bottom and create a new style. There is a choice for border. Once you have created the paragraph style it is Write mode: Write - Create text. (It may be a good idea to create a short-cut).
Addition: playback quarter tone low is something I am not knowledgeable about.
If this is the type of thing you’re looking for…
…then take a look at the following Dorico project:
One instrument detuned.dorico (1.5 MB)
After creating two single players holding an oboe, the instrument names were changed to add the numbering, and the full name of the second oboe was also changed to add the second line. After adding the clef Treble Clef 15 Below to the second oboe, the Edit Music Symbol dialog was used to replace the glyph for G clef quindicesima bassa with G Clef and Reversed Flat, and the X and Y offsets of the flat were changed to move it to the left and down. Staff text was added to the second oboe using a new paragraph style called Boxed Text, and the text was moved to the left in engrave mode. The playback template uses Iconica Sketch for both oboes. To detune the second instrument, Oboe 2 was selected in HALion Sonic and the number below Fine was changed to -50, causing this instrument to lower the pitch by 50 cents of a semitone.
While johnkprice’s solution will certainly get Fabien-Levy going, I was curious to see if Dorico’s built-in 24 EDO tuning option would let the already written layouts for the quarter-tone instruments be construed as transposed, and if I could then set these instruments up within Dorico as transposing instruments to sound a quarter tone down.
On a test score, I converted the original 12 EDO tuning system to Stein-Zimmerman 24 EDO.
Following the procedure in the 6.0/6.1 manual under “Clef and Transpositions Overrides dialog”, I then:
Went to Setup mode and selected a currently non-transposing instrument in the Layouts panel.
Clicked on the “…” icon at the bottom of the Layouts panel.
In the list that comes up, clicked on “Clef and Transposition Overrides…”
In the screen that comes up, clicked on the dot to the right of “Written middle C sounds as:” This activates the little field to the right of the dot, wherein you choose the actual pitch the instrument sounds when the player plays written middle C.
Alas, none of the 24 EDO quarter tone pitches appear in the little field, only the 12 EDO half tone pitches. Is this a bug? All of the transposed pitches would land exactly on pitches defined in 24 EDO, and do not involve the original notation at all.
It does not make any difference whether I first go to Library > Layout Options > Players, select the player from the Layouts panel, and check “Transposing player” in the Player panel.
One way to get the correct playback is to make an appropriate edit to the pitch bend automation lane for each instrument that has been detuned.
Dear John, dear all,
many thanks for your help and answers, and John, this is exactly the right solution to detune those instruments one quarter low. Thank you!
For the writing of the names and clefs, this is what I did a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, it works for the trebble clef but not for the other clefs (basson C- clef, bass clef) since you need to change an existing clef with the same register (or I need tricky things like detuning the instrument, but it is dangerous when changing clefs like Bassoon). I therefore created for the bass clef a key signature in 24-EDO, which obliges me only for this clef to remove the naturals in that note (here a F). Also, the quarter tones are not exactly aligned in both clefs…
@ Sitka: 24-EDO works properly on Dorico (and I use as well for this piece, since instruments like brasses will play local quarter tones). It is important to first choose the 24-EDO and then to fix it with shift K Atonale, as explained in the Dorico youtube video "How to Set Up Microtonal Tunings | Discover Dorico » (13’00 and 31’39’’)
There are other things which I don’t get in dorico which was simple by Finale, like puting text for a group only (for instance the strings; alt+shift+X is for all instruments), but perhaps I need to open a new thread…
Thank you all for your help.
Fabien
By default, Dorico ignores the octave indicators on clefs, although this can be changed in Notation Options > Clefs. In my previous post, I showed how to repurpose a treble clef with a rarely used octave indicator to display a treble clef with a reversed flat positioned wherever I wanted. The same method can be used to add a reversed flat to the F and C clefs. In short, don’t use a key signature to add a reversed flat to a clef.
Dear John,
thank you. but how to create all these clefs (bass clef with quarter tone, C clef with quarter tone, etc.) while also keeping the « normal clefs » and allowing changes of clefs (Bassoon, etc.)? We don’t have enough clefs in the exact same transposition. For the treble clef, it is possible because we can use the indian clef which has the same transposition like the treble clef. How to do for instance for the C-clef?
Best,
F.
In the Clefs panel in the right zone, there is Bass Clef 15 Below under Uncommon Clefs and Tenor Clef 8 Below under Archaic Clefs. If you go to Library > Music Symbols and choose the category Clefs, you can replace the glyph for F clef quindicesima bassa with an F clef and a reversed flat, and you can replace the glyph for C clef ottava bassa with a C clef and a reversed flat. Then your normal and detuned bassoons can look like this:
As I said before, Dorico ignores the octave indicators on clefs by default.
Thank you John, I will try
Fabien
Dear Fabien-Levy,
Many thanks for your suggestion, which I tried (shift K Atonale). Unfortunately, this does not change the list of choices in the field to the right of “Written middle C sounds as:” The list of choices appears to be from a single, static table, and is not dependent on (i.e., linked from) the actual, full range of pitch choices available in 24 EDO.
