I would like to know whether Orchestral Tools Berlin Orchestra Full/Pro/Max and CineSymphony CORE/COMPLETE Bundle work well with Dorico. I used Spitfire BBCSO with Dorico, the experience is bad (as they do not target notation softwares) unless I also use with NotePerformer 4.5. As NotePerformer no longer targets third-party VSTs, I must not rely on NotePerformer anymore. Do these libraries integrate well with Dorico? Does it sound good or realistic once expression maps are setup correctly? For example, does string/woodwind legato sound legato after setting up keyswitches/expression maps correctly? Does the dynamics/volume/crossfading sound balancing or reasonable? I did some searches but seems no one talk about them (with Dorico). Anybody could share your experience?
Besides, does Art Conductor work in the same way of NotePerformer, or is it just a collection of expression maps? I see they have limited supports of these libraries.
I usually point people towards VSL, but would recommend Berlin over Cinesamples.
The problem is in general, inconsistencies in libraries make it more difficult to get good results. You want a nicely balanced default output. Most libraries from most vendors don’t have that. Berlin is better than Cinesamples in this way, but VSL is better than both in terms of getting a half decent result immediately.
Art Conductor isn’t an exact NotePerformer replacement, it is a series of expression maps that allow you to access articulations by adding hidden markings to the score, articulations which otherwise would often not be available in notation software.
to me, your ears have the be the best guide. No full orchestral library gets decent results without some effort. With NPPE, the effort was less than libraries programmed natively but of course you can no longer buy the NotePerformer plug-ins you don’t already have. Although I have one or two subsidiary Orchestral Tools libraries like Tallinn and Salu, I don’t have the main collections so can’t really comment in detail and the main thing that put me off was hardware requirements and price - the latter is becoming less of an issue. The libraries I do own have been easy enough to write maps for.
For me, the warmth and expressiveness of the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra – coupled with the very low price on sale makes it the winner in this category. I agree with @mducharme that VSL has the most reliable programming overall but have never really warmed to the sound, though their solo strings remain my overall first preference there and in general I find them better with chamber than full orchestral music. Basically, unless you like the library to begin with, it doesn’t really matter how easy or hard to programme it is but OT is certainly manageable.
I don’t myself see the point in Art Conductor unless you have a lot of libraries and want ready made maps for them - perhaps you do a lot of work in a DAW for instance and need to be able to reproduce as painlessly as possible in Dorico. That doesn’t apply to me – and I’d rather work on creating maps suited to my own needs for my primary libraries. At any rate, in no way is Art Conductor comparable to NotePerformer.
“For me, the warmth and expressiveness of the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra – coupled with the very low price on sale makes it the winner in this category.”
What was involved in making Spitfire Symphony Orchestra work smoothly with Dorico? I haven’t delved into creating expression maps. Do you find that your approach sounds better than what Wallander did with the NPPE plugin for Spitfire Symphony Orchestra? How did it do with fast crisp passages ( a challenge I found with some other libs )?
The SSO performance patches are designed to react to being played - to shorter notes, and legato notes, to more or less velocity. The result is that they respond pretty well to note lengths, slurs and dynamics without a lot of programming. So out of the box is nicer than some.
There is quite a bit more they can do WITH programming in the “ all articulations” patches, and they all have like 3 -6 different midi CC whose use I would recommend. Things like vibrato can be much more expressively shaped to your piece if you use them.
the SSO with Dorico is a bit of a black art as you require to load two patches – the “all techniques” which are not in fact all techniques as it doesn’t include legato and the “performance patches” which are for legato basically, though, as @gdball says are designed for live palying which can include faster techniques. You need to use the Spitfire UACC control system which works pretty well in ensuring that the playing techniques are mutually exclusive, though there are still one or two oddities I find but can work around for now.
unlike with the BBC SO, I actually overall prefer the results with my maps than NPPE (which I can only run in trial mode) because the NPPE makes some compromises with both the microphones and the use of articulations, though as you would expect, the results are in many ways pretty musical. The shorts in the SSO are not generally a problem as I find them very crisp (more so than the BBCSO) providing you use the correct artics.
Although some of the CC’s don’t seem to do that much in general, certainly it is essential to shape the vibrato with CC21 – not at all onerous in the key editor..
Your successful story of SSO + Dorico sounds interesting! I would love to hear more detail if you could share.
I am about to add SSO and OT to my wishlist after reading your and @mducharme’s comments, but I would like to know more. I own some VSL libraries actually but I don’t like their sounds.
I ended up in acquiring Pacific Ensemble Strings after hearing a comparison among multiple libraries on YouTube. I set up the expression maps quickly (as the library basically accepts nothing except CC1 and channel switches) but the results are far less satisfactory than the YouTube video, which also provides the original Logic project file. I checked that project only uses the library as-is without tweaking or adding any more plugin. I realized it is a matter of MIDI programming skills and patience. I am still thinking what are the next steps. Controlling CC1 of all the notes in Dorico sounds unimaginable to me.
first it might be an idea to sample a bit of what I’ve done with the SSO here Spitfire Symphony Orchestra symphonic renderings If you don’t like the renderings at all there, then my story probably won’t be of much interest! If it does appeal then feel free to PM me with more specific questions if you like.
But I know what you feel about VSL. I don’t feel they have the warmth and cohesiveness for full orchestra but it really depends on the sort of music you write. It is widely acknowledged that they have fewer glaring inconsistencies than most other vendors. Spitfire have plenty but they make music come alive and that is the difference.
Which ones do you have? I’m asking because they have some very old really bad libraries that are still sold too. They’ve been in business for like 25 years and still sell some libraries recorded and first released 25 years ago. If you’re comparing the Studio series with the Synchron series for instance, they are totally different.
Pacific Ensemble Strings is quite a good library, I don’t have it myself although I have many other libraries by the vendor. They are generally pretty consistent which is good in Dorico. but his libraries also go up to a much higher dynamic range than other libraries, so you might find you need to adjust the curve and minimum and maximum dynamic levels in the map. Knowing from his other string libraries, they get to the dynamic halfway up the modwheel that most other libraries get to 90% of the way up. So just plugging them in in Dorico, you’d probably get way too much of the very loud dynamics, and that’s also where the portamento kicks in in that library from what I’ve heard, so you usually want to stay out of that area.
I agree. I have BBC SO and SSO 2024, but use Synchron Prime much more often- with and without NPPE. Using BBC SO and SSO 2024 with NPPE helps make them a bit more usable for me; but I still usually prefer- and use- Synchron PRIME.
I have VI Special Edition (really old!) and Studio Special Edition. It could be a matter of personal tastes. I am “bored” when listening to their strings and woodwinds. Although the Studio one supposes to be an upgrade, the percussion of the VI one sounds much better and natural. Bassoons in both editions are hard to be heard if played in an orchestra in both Dorico and another notation software.
So just plugging them in in Dorico, you’d probably get way too much of the very loud dynamics, and that’s also where the portamento kicks in in that library from what I’ve heard, so you usually want to stay out of that area.
Their portamento is really annoying - there is no specific control but coupled to the CC1. It triggers with every legato note, which is unrealistic, if the CC1 dynamics is over 70%. I compressed the dynamics range in Dorico, then boosted the volume up. Now the violins in my work sound artificial in high register. Besides that, this library is really good and easy to work in Dorico and with additional reverb plugins.
I checked the Logic project file from the strings comparison YouTube video and compared. He didn’t compress anything. No unnatural portamento even in high register. And sounding very good (he uses the full dynamics). The VST is used out-of-the-box. No third-party reverb is used. I am still figuring out why he could achieve good results - perhaps I overlooked some of his adjustments as I am not familiar with Logic.
The Special Edition (both versions) is not a good library, with the exception of the dry woodwinds which are generally very good. I never use it and have never liked it, again with the exception of the woodwinds (although they need some EQing to sound best). If you’re judging VSL based on the VI/studio libraries then you’re evaluating very old samples and recordings. The studio series uses the same samples as VI (nothing at all new) just ported to a different player. The only thing “new” in studio special edition (other than the player) is the simulated Synchron reverb which can be turned off and then it sounds the same as VI with that turned off.
Only the studio piano series is substantially new - with that one exception, the rest of the studio libraries and VI are all very old recordings, around 20 years old on average, and are dry single mic instead of ambient multi mic.
The line of thinking used to be to use dry libraries and then create a “fake room” around them (with MIR or or other reverbs) to replace them. But ambient multi-mic recordings have been the standard for over 15 years because simulated rooms just don’t match up to real ones in terms of realism. VSL still sells the studio series because some people really like the dry recordings, especially if they want to place the instruments in an environment that is not a concert hall, or if they want total control over the panning and placement, but it isn’t their main series anymore.
The Synchron series libraries are totally different. They are recorded not in dry environments but in a professional concert hall like what Orchestral Tools and Spitfire and Cinesamples do (they are ambient multi-mic recordings). I didn’t like VSL at all until the Synchron series changed my mind on them, I like those libraries much much more than the Studio ones.
If you don’t like the Synchron series either, that’s fine of course - some people just don’t personally like a particular sound. But I just mention this because if you’re judging VSL only by VI and studio you’re really judging them based on 20 year old recordings instead of what they’ve been doing for the last 7 years or so (Synchron).