Can someone help me figure out why the page token doesn’t work in the Parts Layout (called MMB part in this document)?
I got it to work the first time I set up a page template this way, but it doesn’t work now and can’t figure out what got changed between the one and the other.
JW
MMB Northern Dance set v-2.dorico (1.5 MB)
OK I figured this out by looking at other threads. I’d like to state for the record, however, that it is absolutely non-intuitive that even though I intentionally place a page number on the top of my score I have to somehow know that there is some other select box in some other random panel that I need to tick in order for it to actually show. This is UTTER MADNESS. And, it would appear that this is a “feature” that was added recently?? I remember distinctly that simply putting the @page@ token worked the first time I used it back in 2023, and then since I’ve upgraded Dorico it no longer worked that way. Can that be true?
JW
Now that you know it’s there, you can set it as a default, and then you won’t need to think about it for future projects.
Thanks Asherber,
I have never been able to get Dorico to successfully save defaults or to create templates. I have to use “Save as” from existing projects every time, and even then the layout settings are always messed up in the new files.
for example. this is the file I’m actually trying to work on today and even though I have the appropriate box checked in the layout panel, the page number still does not show.
of course it is too big to upload here, and I need to actually need to create the music in the file so I can send it to the director. It is intensely annoying to confront how rubbish the layout “features” are in dorico
No way to :
— align boxes
— set size of boxes
— group boxes
— nudge boxes
— vertical and or/horizontal alignment guides
All of these are bog standard features of any basic layout program and yet they are all totally absent in dorico. Makes the layouts impossible to align without ridiculous amounts of fiddling and guess work.
JW.
Do you have that option set in the layout you’re working with? As the name suggests, those options are per-layout. When you have Layout Options open, you can select one or more layouts in the right-hand panel which you want to change options for.
For the layout features that you find lacking, I agree that some improvement here would be welcome. But you can accomplish some of what you’re looking for. You can directly set the size of frames in the lower Properties panel, and you can nudge them using the same key combos that are used to move other objects graphically.
I saved to all layouts and double checked.
with regard to layout, I’m speaking of “layout” in the haders and flow headers … things to do with the page templates.
I’ve never, ever, encountered a program that puts your guide lines at the top of the frame, centers text vertically as the default, doesn’t allow you to set the frame size specifically (i.e. w x h), doesn’t show the center line, and on and on. It’s maddening. jw
You can set the height and width of frames directly, but only if the frame isn’t constrained to all four sides of the page. If it’s constrained to all four sides of the page the height and width will be determined by the size of the page.
This makes layouts adaptable to multiple page sizes.
In addition one can use the Properties panel to set measurements with precision.
When all else fails, read the instructions–or ask here as if one wanted a chance to learn rather than a chance to vent.
Have you ever encountered a program that enables you change your layout midstream?
With respect Derrek,
The constraints in the properties panel have to be calculated in regard to the whole page x/y axis rather than an absolute size of the box, which can then be placed and refined upon the page. This is not a useful way to set box dimensions without having to do a pile of unnecessary math. In indesign you can dial in the location of the box via X/y measurements and also set the absolute size of the box. This is a choice on the part of the UI/UX designers for Dorico, and I am simply noting that it is well out of line with existing UI/UX practice in other layout programs.
It is also an exceptionally odd choice to set the pop up guides to appear on the top of the box rather than at the baseline, which is where any text-focused design program will show the guides.
I have worked with these “features” extensively and have not found solutions to these issues, which again, do not align with common practice for layout programs.
JW.
Yup, absolutely. I’ve worked a fair bit with the Adobe Creative suite. JW
Hi pianoleo,
When I’m setting up page templates I would just much prefer to work in a way similar to programs like Indesign, where you can set a standard size for a box/frame and then manipulate it in space by drag/drop and also via x/y coordinates.
when I select a text frame in the ‘default part’ editor, there is a spot for height and width, but it is greyed out and I can’t use it.
How am I supposed to create well-alligned header layouts when I can’t set a text baseline and line up the text on the baseline? the fact that the only way to get a centered text box is to set is as full width (because there is no snap to center line) means that it’s a colossal PITA to try to align flanking text on the right and left.
What is most frustrating is that these are solved UI problems.
JW
On the other hand, InDesign does a pretty bad job rendering scores, right? 
Hi Derrek,
Just to amplify the previous reply. As you can see in this screen shot, I quite specifically cannot set height and width on this selected text box. I have to move it around by guess work based on the x/y coordinates. Who likes to do things that way?? JW
If you put a frame on the page, you will see that by default it is constrained to all four edges of the page. The padlocks in the left panel govern these constraints.
A frame must be locked to one horizontal and one vertical, but if you unlock, say, the bottom and right side, you’ll see that you can set the width and height in the properties panel, or by dragging, or with the keyboard.
This is because in the left-hand panel the box is locked to the left and right margin. When you for example unlock it from the right margin, you can then enter the width (but not the margin from the right).
Hi Estigy,
The workflow that we have settled on is to do the page layouts in Indesign and to export slices with the actual music engraving and place them as images/svg on the book pages.
While adequate for lead sheets and workshop materials, Dorico’s page layout features are simply not good enough to produce a music folio to our publishing standards. the resulting workflow is somewhat cumbersome, and the slice export options are their own unique and special hell, but that’s what we have come up with.
It’s not that Muse score or Sibelius did much better on that front, but Muse Score and Sibelius don’t really promise to offer fine grained control over page templates and page layouts – without flows there’s not much point really. The fact that Dorico is incrementally better is good and worth celebrating, but the choices to ‘reinvent the weasel’ as my UX friend calls it is a choice that doesn’t make a lot of sense if you’ve ever worked in those other programs.
In any case, we tend to take the view that Dorico is good at some things and not good at others. Page template layout is a just one of those things that Dorico is maddeningly challenging to get to work, precisely because the UI doesn’t really deliver on fine-grained control in the way the music engraving does.
JW.
Ok, thanks Estigy and Pianoleo, that is helpful.
What is the UI/UX purpose of having the frame locks in a completely different location than the properties panel? How is one to intuit that it’s the frame locks that are preventing the possibility of setting the height of a box, particularly if that side of the panel is collapsed on the left hand side?
Also, it would appear that the term “locked” means something rather different in Dorico than it does in other graphics programs. I’m pretty sure that in Indesign, when you “lock” a frame, you can’t change it’s size and location.
In Dorico, with the frame locks on, I can change the size of the text frame by dragging handles, and I can also move the frame around on the page as a drag and drop. So it seems that the “locked quality” only applies if I want to manually set the height and width of the text frame in question.
Under these circumstances, I’m not sure how a user will intuit that the frame locks are what needs to be changed in order to adjust absolute height and width – particularly since the interface to do so isn’t part of the properties panel, adjacent to where those adjustments are made.
Also, I still have no answer for why I can’t get a page number in my file even though I have selected for page numbers to show in all layouts in this file. Unfortunately the file is too big to upload here.
jw
It is explained in the manual.
Yes, this is true. But this paradigm is used in other kinds of applications where resizing of the underlying canvas is possible (Visual Studio, for example). It’s often referred to there as “anchor” rather than “lock”.
When one of the sides is locked, you can only directly set its position relative to that side of the page. You need to have either the top or bottom unlocked in order to set height, and the left or right unlocked in order to set width. If you unlock both right and bottom, you’ll be able to set Left, Top, Height, and Width, which will probably feel similar to DTP apps. If you don’t plan to use your template with a different page size, you can leave things that way – or you can relock right and bottom when you’re done, and then the frame will resize when the page resizes.
You can make the file smaller by applying the Silence playback template, and by deleting some of the players/layouts. Or you can upload to Dropbox or something similar and post a link here.
