Pan Law for the biggest sounding mix

Cubase
41

0:00 - Guitar sounds good, just a few dB too loud. Vocal is boxy and doesn’t cut thru the mix (cut mud and boost 1.5-4k ; not the entire range, just where the ‘power lies’. might need to SC and/or scoop the same feq. the acous. rrhythm guitar for the vocal to have a spot
0:30 - Flat vocal note
0:40 - The bass sounds out of tune? Or is it the guitar. The kick needs a little ‘weight’ to it. A little roominess on the drums might help the vibe
0:58 - Same thing about the male vocal applies to the female lead vocal. I think a short reverb and/or delay would really help here too
1:59: Great drummer, but those toms are up a little too much.
~2:15: Something in that acoustic guitar is causing my ears to fatigue. Attenuating that freq. will probably help bring out the vocals. Add some space too it too, to give it some more texture if you find that attenuating the hi-freq takes away some of the ‘prettiness’

all IMO, obvious. You already did the majority of the work, as the rhythm section and the guitar are mostly there.

42

:question: :question: :question: $8.34 on Amazon

43

Que? They list it, without a price. They don’t actually have it to sell. It is only available on his website.

Actually, I might actually read it again, just so I can get anything I missed first time round.

44

Updated the mix. Dropbox - Error

I appreciate the continued feedback.

45

I clicked on the link in your post above which brought me here:

Used of course, but there are some listings for new.

46

The book being discussed, against which you posted the $8.34 price, was the Mixing with your mind, not good vibrations.

47

My apologies.
I missed that link while skimming through this very informative thread.
As a reader, let me say Thank You for sharing your insights.

If I might add, the Internal Mixing book and DVDs helped me sort out much of the process of mixing. http://www.tischmeyer-mastering.de/pwde/?lang=EN
Mixing with Your Mind looks like a book I need to read.

Cheers

48

I would say, unless you’re an experienced mix engineer stay well away from any kind of Stereo enhancement.



Those things can do more harm than good in inexperienced hands.


If needed let your mastering engineer widen your mixes.


MC

49

@MrSmith - thanks for the comments. They were posted just as I posted my updated mix. Some EQ stuff was changed. Regarding notes out of tune, I’m singing a D on an Asus2/4 down to a C# on a F#min11/A chord - the notes might sound weird to you, but the pitches are correct.

@Patanjali and anyone else who’s interested in providing constructive feedback, I updated the mix.

50

First thing —> Fan-bloody-tastic. Night and day. Sounds like you have the story worked out and pretty much the shape you want it in. What an immersive experience! Congrats! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Now to some specifics:

a) Vocals are not clear, and sound smeared in with the rest so much that it is hard to make out the words.
For vocals, if you want them to be understood, you do need to leave some space around them, typically by:

__ i) Sculpturing other things around them. If you want guitar up loud to be driving things along, you need to use ducking or automation to drop the notes down, including the one immediately before a vocal line starts, and fading back in at the tail of vocal lines. Guitar notes during significant vocal pauses in the line can be brought back up.

I typically set the vocal level and sculpt everything else around them. But then, our music is sparse. Your mileage many vary!

__ ii) Don’t apply the same effects to them that you are using heavily for everything else. Perhaps use a different reverb (plate) just for them so the quality of their space stands out from the rest.

b) My opinion, but the first time the female vocal appears, I suggest starting at the centre, just so we know that she is important. Then you can move her around to show her confusion.

c) I feel the male and female vocals are meant to be equal, but the male is more out from the centre and mixed back. Sort of takes a bit away from the beautiful blending of their short duo lines.


Again, beautiful! You are close, and may not need much more to be getting something out the door. I am impressed with your creative producing skills. They will carry you into areas others could only dream of going!


One thing I learnt from tech writing. If a reviewer mentioning difficultly with something, it usually meant something wasn’t quite flowing right, so I would usually make a change, mostly minor, but it improved the flow.

Just because the notes may be right, does not mean they sound right. Here, it is not the overall note pitch, but the flow of the pitch during the note. It sounds like the note pitch is wavering a bit too much in the wrong way.

Cubase has some neat stuff to change tuning. You can chop the note up and flatten variation in a section, or change the slope of the pitch variation. Might be time to learn a couple of Cubase tricks?

51

I just gave it a quick listen, can probably check it out again later. The acoustic guitar up to 36 seconds seems too loud to me. Strum attacks later in the mix are scratchy on my ears. Really liking the female vocals. If you try to match forward/backward positioning of the vocals I would try to match the male with the female rather than vice versa.

52

Thank you.

When we were doing the CD, too many people were indulging in what I call ‘information embargo’, where they seemed to think that they would lose if others knew what they knew. Like, some wouldn’t tell me what reverb they were using.

However, in these days of information inundation, knowledge is no longer power. It is how you use it. And you can eventually find out anything, so anyone sitting on information basically gets bypassed.

My stance is that if I can help someone, we all benefit, because it helps to raise the bar (at least I hope so), and that means we evolve for the better.

53

But experience starts somewhere, and experimenting while simultaneously seeking mentoring is a fast track to becoming experienced. After all, mastering engineers started with no experience.

54

Cooool, glad I’m getting it together – it’s thanks to all your (collective) great feedback. (Thanks!) Really, like I said, up until that point I’d been mostly focusing on getting the instruments to sound right. A couple of responses:

I don’t have any vocal effects that are shared with anything. The only vocal FX are some Pultec and LA2A on the male vox bus, and a this heavily affect stereo echo on the female vox during the verses. Your most recent feedback gave me an idea I’ll try out on the male vox.

I’ll work with the melody Mr. Smith referenced.

I’m pretty fluent with the VariAudio editing. I’m horrible singer and spend far more time editing my vocal tracks than recording them. (I’m surprised no one’s complained yet!) Moving notes around? No problem! That said, I just won an auction for a Liquid Channel, so I’ll be redoing all my vox after I get it. (As such, I likely won’t be updating the mix until I get my new vox recorded.)

By the way, on the recent my you just reviewed I used the Bob Katz stereo enhancer. Did you notice? It sounds great - much cleaner and more taylorable than Cubase’s Stereo Enhancer.

55

Many singers do not like the sound of their own voices. Find someone you trust to provide feedback and believe it.

Many times I have thought there was something in a vocal that needed fixing, only to listen to it in the mix the next day and think it was OK as it was. So if something doesn’t sound right, especially if you have been doing it to death ( and solo is worse), have a lay day and then go back and listen.

I don’t use any plugins enough to be able to cold tell if they have been used in a mix. If someone points out they used a Fairchild compressor or an EMT plate, I could probably be able to say ‘I concur’ :wink:, but for anything else, I’m blind.

We have used the K-Stereo Ambience plugin on the output channel of all our tracks, with basically the same settings, as it gives the sort of quality I want. That may change if we radically change arrangements.

56

OK, you seem to disagree with everything I say, fine, but I’m trying, as are you to help the OP and everyone else who reads this thread.

I’ll explain my statement: If the OP learns to make his mix sound wider/ better by NOT using stereo enhancement then he will have learned a valuable set of skills that will make him a better mixer in the long run. He/she will then be in a better position to use stereo enhancement if still needed.

I would say the same about using maximisers/limiters and mono testing.


Using these things from the get go as a lot of inexperienced mixers do is like running before you can walk.


I’ll put this into perspective by saying I’ve been doing this for 30 years and have learned a lot on the way, I’m still learning and happily passing on what I’ve learned from working with Grammy award winning producers/engineers/musicians hands on, NOT from reading books or theory.


Mr Patanjali may I ask how long you’ve been a professional mix engineer/Producer/musician? I’m just curious as to your credentials.



MC

57

Back in 2007. Friends with SSL/Protools studios used to tell me musicians come in our studios for mixing because we can make it sound bigger and wider. I said okay :confused: It may sound bigger or wider in their studio because of the room when mixing. What does it sound like outside the studio? In your car, iPod, home stereo… Cubase always had a great stereo enhancer now with 7.5’s mastering template’ stereo enhancer plug in is excellent for that. Mini reference monitory and the iPhone 5 are great for checking mono mixes if it sounds good on those you’re good to go. Also big and wide mixes may or may not work for all genres of music. Some genres sound better with a tight sound…

58

Lol. He doesn’t need to give you any credentials. From what I’ve seen he’s been giving the OP solid, useable tips throughout this thread, whereas your first post was off in left field and your following two posts have only offered further vague notions without actually giving the OP any solid suggestions.

59

Some people on here have given me very specific feedback, so much so I’ve been able to review the exact spot in the mix to which they referred, “hear” what they’re hearing, then choose whether to make a change or not. That’s been incredibly helpful.

Others have spoken in platitudes - making vague, broad statements “teaching me” the importance of arrangement, composition skills, etc., and even given very beginner-level advice. I kind of wonder about this group. If it’s not clear from the song I have a solid sense of arrangement and composition, as well that I am at least decent at recording and mixing…I question the finger-pointer’s sensibilities. These are the responses I’ve basically disregarded as to me, not only do they not offer anything useful, they hint that the author, may not really know what he’s talking about. (Or maybe we’re just coming from really different places.) For me, the specifics are far more useful.

That said - even if you feel lumped you in the latter category - I’m truly grateful to those whose responses come from a genuine desire to help others grow. Thank you!

60

If you read between the lines, you clearly see who is the more experienced engineer/producer/mixer here.
Many words doesn’t make you a good any of the above.

If you start your mixing career with investigating “stereo wideners”, you better start over.

Learn to mix with source tracks only to the stereo bus/mix, using the avantage of good recording, mic placement, and phase/time relations in stereo recording. Lots of things in there to make wide enough mixes (within reason). Do not rely on some mumbo jumbo tricks’n’tools to polish/fix your initial mix.

As said earlier in this thread, the first time around let your masterin engineer do some widening (if needed). The more widening, the less power (don’t feel the urge to compansate with over-compression/limiting).